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okay here is our interview with stephen

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meyer the cambridge experience must have

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been pretty fascinating

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it was enchanting yeah challenging but

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very very cool yeah

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pretty serious luminaries from there

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isn't uh didn't hawking go there hawking

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did go there

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yeah he was there i actually was

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fortunate enough to attend a lecture

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series that he gave based on

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that was the basis of the book a brief

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history of time which i

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address in the new book oh super cool

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and then what about um the brilliant

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mind guy

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was he there too um remember the movie a

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brilliant mind with

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oh nash yeah nash i think he was

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and um the the people that were most

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important for my story that were there

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were all the molecular biologists you

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know

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francis crick and watson and

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those folks so those laboratories are

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still there they've turned out a lot of

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nobel laureates over the years i think

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cambridge still has the most of any

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university

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second so

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um so and your degree your phd really is

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in the philosophy of science

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it's philosophy of science and i did i

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worked on origin of life biology so it

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was a sort of

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and that's that's the kind of the nature

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of the field it's interdisciplinary

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uh uh looking at questions that

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are at the intersection between

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philosophy and science wow

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are there many universities that even

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offer that um

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it's a it's a yeah a fairly common field

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now uh

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university of um wisconsin

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is often combined with history and

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philosophy of science uh the two

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together but uh

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harvard university of wisconsin oklahoma

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are really three really great programs

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in the united states in that field

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i think ucla has probably some good

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people there too so

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and just briefly again how would you

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describe what it means to say the

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philosophy of science

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looking at questions at the foundation

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of scientific disciplines

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sometimes questions of epistemology and

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scientific methods how do we know what

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we know how do we evaluate

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how reliable our methods are um

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and and then questions at the foundation

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of disciplines

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so the question of origins is both

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a scientific question but also a

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philosophical one because it

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intersects with the fundamental

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considerations of world view

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for example um every worldview

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has to answer the question what is the

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entity or the thing or the process from

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which everything else comes in

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philosophy they call that the question

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of ontology

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what's fundamental what's the prime or

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ultimate reality but

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it happens that there are scientific

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fields that address that same

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question so there's an intersection you

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know where we have questions of

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biological origins questions of

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cosmological origins and those are

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things that have always interested me

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so and then to get to the crux of your

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book in the course of your studies there

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was this kind of one of the things that

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was being considered

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is origins of everything and

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whether there's any explanation for for

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it all

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well right there's a whole field of

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study called origin of life research

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it's mainly uh conducted by biochemists

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and cell biologists and molecular

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biologists who understand the

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complexities of the cell at a

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biochemical level

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um it's also philosophical because it

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raises this big question of

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you know where where did life come from

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that's a question that's been debated

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all the way back to the ancient greeks

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and there were materialists like

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democritus

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and there were people who were more

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theistically oriented like plato and

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aristotle

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and so i was very interested in the

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question

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of the scientific methods that are used

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to reconstruct the past

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there we always talk about the

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scientific method but

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the when you get into the philosophy of

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science you learn that there are

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actually

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multiple scientific methods there are

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different methods for different

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disciplines some of them have things in

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common some of them are slightly

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different

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but when you're investigating the past

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the one thing you can't do

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is uh replicate the events that you want

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to study

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in controlled laboratory environments

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you

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might be able to simulate some parts of

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those events but you

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the the events the origin events

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happened

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a long time ago so

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you have to use different methods to

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study the past than you do

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to study how nature ordinarily works on

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an ongoing basis which is what a lot of

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science is about so

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i was not only interested in the

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question of the origin of life but also

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how do scientists investigate that

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question

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and what constitutes a legitimate

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scientific explanation of a singular

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event in the

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in the remote past so it's a much more

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forensic style

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of of science where you've got the clue

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my

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phd thesis in fact was called of clues

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and causes you've got the clues that are

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left behind

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now what do you make of what caused

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those clues and what caused the events

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that the clues attest to

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so um that was so i was interested in

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the science of origin of life research

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and the methods of studying

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where the first life came from and it

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turns out those methods are also

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used by for example cosmologists trying

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to figure out how the universe came to

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be

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and you're doing these studies around

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presumably

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primarily atheists primarily

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i think the default way of thinking in

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most major western universities in this

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in science departments

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is certainly uh what you might call

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naturalistic or materialistic in the

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sense that the assumption is that

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um that the physical world of the

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physical or natural world is all there

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is

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matter and energy space and time and

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that's

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challenge to that that i've been making

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and proponents of the idea of

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intelligent design have been making is

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that

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there are features of the of the

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physical world

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particularly the living world that are

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indicative in our experience of the

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activity of designing intelligence

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so can we begin can we can we invoke the

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notion of creative intelligence as an

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explanatory principle as we're studying

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for example the origin of life or the

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origin of the information

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that's in life that's necessary to make

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life function that's one of the

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indicators i was just referring to

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this this was the big discovery of

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modern molecular biology is that

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at the foundation of life in the large

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what are called macromolecules things

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like dna and rna

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there is uh information stored in a

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digital form

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and in our experience information

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especially if it's functional and

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digital

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is the product is always the product of

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an intelligent agent

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uh bill gates has said dna is like a

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software program richard dawkins has

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acknowledged that

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the dna contains machine code uh leroy

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hood a

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great bio uh technologist has described

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dna as simply digital code

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well where does digital code come from

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in our experience it comes from

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programmers

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and so the the discovery of information

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at the foundation of life i've argued

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seems to point to a designing

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intelligence and in making that

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argument i use the same method of

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reasoning that i discovered was commonly

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used by historical scientists

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including darwin and other great 19th

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century uh

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evolutionary biologists who uh initiated

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this method

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of reasoning so reasoning from the

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effect back to the cause if there's only

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one known cause of a given effect

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uh if it's true that where there's smoke

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there's uh

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there's always fire you can infer if you

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see smoke coming over wafting over the

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hillside you can infer that there's a

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fire below out of view

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well if it's true that information in a

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functional and digital form always

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arises from an intelligent source than

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the discovery of information and living

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systems

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points i've argued to the activity of a

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designing intelligence in the origin of

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life

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okay so and i want to get into that i

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know that in in your new book you

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specifically talk about three particular

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discoveries that you think

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point to this but just laying a little

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bit more foundation before we yeah yeah

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yeah no we can't

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get into that so what what are

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you as far as when it comes to your

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personal views about god how were you

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raised as far as religion goes and what

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are your current

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religious beliefs yeah i'm i'm a

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christian

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and i was raised in a kind of nominally

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catholic home

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my personal conversion to a religious uh

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my conversion to a personal religious

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belief took place

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over a period of time about seven years

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of uh from late high school through the

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first couple years out of college

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took me a while to settle in in the

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conviction that it was actually true

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um and it was it was um

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i the the scientific challenges

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to faith that are often presented never

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really bothered me

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i was pretty content with an

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evolutionary account of things and still

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i

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uh

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as an undergraduate and i became

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intrigued with this

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argument about uh i

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became intrigued with the realization

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that the presence of information

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in living systems was the main reason

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that

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scientists were having trouble

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explaining the origin of life that

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it's hard to explain how you could get

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from chemistry in a prebiotic soup to a

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functioning

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uh digital code with an information

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processing system which is what we find

291
00:10:14,949 --> 00:10:12,560
in cells

292
00:10:16,470 --> 00:10:14,959
so my my scientific conversion if you

293
00:10:19,829 --> 00:10:16,480
will to intelligent design came

294
00:10:22,630 --> 00:10:19,839
after a religious conversion

295
00:10:24,470 --> 00:10:22,640
and so at the time that you went to

296
00:10:26,310 --> 00:10:24,480
cambridge

297
00:10:28,389 --> 00:10:26,320
you had pretty strong christian

298
00:10:31,350 --> 00:10:28,399
convictions

299
00:10:32,949 --> 00:10:31,360
yes indeed yes i did and still today and

300
00:10:35,350 --> 00:10:32,959
and then when we talk about

301
00:10:37,269 --> 00:10:35,360
you know the possibility you know the

302
00:10:41,509 --> 00:10:37,279
god hypothesis

303
00:10:44,470 --> 00:10:41,519
and um is that a christian god

304
00:10:45,430 --> 00:10:44,480
that you believe that you were providing

305
00:10:49,350 --> 00:10:45,440
evidence of

306
00:10:52,550 --> 00:10:49,360
as opposed to any other type of god

307
00:10:54,790 --> 00:10:52,560
it's a theistic god

308
00:10:56,069 --> 00:10:54,800
i think the science the scientific

309
00:11:00,550 --> 00:10:56,079
arguments and evidence

310
00:11:03,590 --> 00:11:00,560
that i marshall can only take you so far

311
00:11:05,670 --> 00:11:03,600
they point i think to an intelligence i

312
00:11:07,350 --> 00:11:05,680
think it takes intelligence or mind to

313
00:11:08,870 --> 00:11:07,360
generate information

314
00:11:10,470 --> 00:11:08,880
i think we have information at the

315
00:11:12,230 --> 00:11:10,480
foundation of life and information at

316
00:11:13,829 --> 00:11:12,240
the foundation of the cosmos as well and

317
00:11:15,750 --> 00:11:13,839
the fine-tuning

318
00:11:17,269 --> 00:11:15,760
that we can discuss one of the three big

319
00:11:18,710 --> 00:11:17,279
things i discuss in the book and and

320
00:11:21,750 --> 00:11:18,720
some other evidence of that

321
00:11:23,590 --> 00:11:21,760
so i think you see evidence of of mind

322
00:11:25,190 --> 00:11:23,600
and i think you see evidence not only of

323
00:11:26,470 --> 00:11:25,200
a mind who has been active in the

324
00:11:28,790 --> 00:11:26,480
creation but one

325
00:11:30,630 --> 00:11:28,800
who has the capability of structuring

326
00:11:33,509 --> 00:11:30,640
the whole of the universe

327
00:11:34,069 --> 00:11:33,519
we see what was called the fine-tuning

328
00:11:35,590 --> 00:11:34,079
of the

329
00:11:37,670 --> 00:11:35,600
laws and constants of physics the

330
00:11:39,509 --> 00:11:37,680
initial conditions of the universe

331
00:11:41,430 --> 00:11:39,519
from the very beginning of the universe

332
00:11:42,069 --> 00:11:41,440
suggesting a mind which has the ability

333
00:11:43,750 --> 00:11:42,079
to

334
00:11:45,910 --> 00:11:43,760
structure the whole of the universe and

335
00:11:49,590 --> 00:11:45,920
so i think you see evidence of both

336
00:11:51,990 --> 00:11:49,600
transcendence as well as

337
00:11:53,590 --> 00:11:52,000
imminence that is an intelligence that

338
00:11:54,389 --> 00:11:53,600
is active in the creation i think that

339
00:11:56,949 --> 00:11:54,399
comports

340
00:11:58,790 --> 00:11:56,959
well with the judeo-christian concept of

341
00:12:01,509 --> 00:11:58,800
god but also the concept of god that

342
00:12:02,550 --> 00:12:01,519
have has been held by other uh classical

343
00:12:05,910 --> 00:12:02,560
theists

344
00:12:07,829 --> 00:12:05,920
um so yeah i don't think it helps

345
00:12:09,990 --> 00:12:07,839
the the kinds of evidence that i'm

346
00:12:11,670 --> 00:12:10,000
marshaling the kind of evidence that

347
00:12:13,350 --> 00:12:11,680
i cite and the arguments that i'm

348
00:12:16,550 --> 00:12:13,360
marshaling support

349
00:12:19,350 --> 00:12:16,560
theism versus say deism or pantheism

350
00:12:20,629 --> 00:12:19,360
or one idea that's been proposed called

351
00:12:22,790 --> 00:12:20,639
panspermia

352
00:12:24,069 --> 00:12:22,800
the idea that life was seeded to earth

353
00:12:27,269 --> 00:12:24,079
by an intelligent alien

354
00:12:30,230 --> 00:12:28,870
perhaps fanciful but some scientists

355
00:12:32,150 --> 00:12:30,240
have actually proposed that in recent

356
00:12:33,269 --> 00:12:32,160
years because they see how severe the

357
00:12:34,949 --> 00:12:33,279
problem of

358
00:12:36,829 --> 00:12:34,959
explaining the origin of life is by

359
00:12:38,389 --> 00:12:36,839
reference to chemical evolutionary

360
00:12:40,790 --> 00:12:38,399
processes uh

361
00:12:41,910 --> 00:12:40,800
and i i examine that thesis i take it

362
00:12:43,829 --> 00:12:41,920
seriously and and

363
00:12:45,030 --> 00:12:43,839
uh but i think that's inadequate so i

364
00:12:46,470 --> 00:12:45,040
think that the

365
00:12:48,470 --> 00:12:46,480
concept of god i have in mind is

366
00:12:50,150 --> 00:12:48,480
something that would be affirmed by

367
00:12:52,389 --> 00:12:50,160
by traditional jews and christians and

368
00:12:55,910 --> 00:12:52,399
other traditional theists

369
00:12:57,350 --> 00:12:55,920
and and theism just to find that for us

370
00:12:59,190 --> 00:12:57,360
quickly as opposed to the other thing

371
00:13:01,750 --> 00:12:59,200
yeah theism is the idea that there

372
00:13:02,550 --> 00:13:01,760
is a personal god a god that has a mind

373
00:13:05,350 --> 00:13:02,560
and

374
00:13:06,389 --> 00:13:05,360
self-conscious deliberation who created

375
00:13:10,629 --> 00:13:06,399
the universe

376
00:13:13,190 --> 00:13:10,639
after the beginning

377
00:13:14,949 --> 00:13:13,200
um deism is the concept that god there's

378
00:13:16,310 --> 00:13:14,959
a god who transcends the universe who's

379
00:13:18,230 --> 00:13:16,320
separate from the universe who created

380
00:13:20,150 --> 00:13:18,240
the universe but then had no

381
00:13:21,750 --> 00:13:20,160
involvement with god with the universe

382
00:13:24,710 --> 00:13:21,760
after the beginning

383
00:13:26,790 --> 00:13:24,720
pantheism the eastern concept of god is

384
00:13:28,949 --> 00:13:26,800
god is not a personal

385
00:13:30,310 --> 00:13:28,959
being it's not a conscious intelligence

386
00:13:32,150 --> 00:13:30,320
to whom you could

387
00:13:34,550 --> 00:13:32,160
pray or with whom you could communicate

388
00:13:37,829 --> 00:13:34,560
but rather a kind of mystical force or

389
00:13:38,790 --> 00:13:37,839
oneness a sort of unity in all things

390
00:13:42,230 --> 00:13:38,800
but not

391
00:13:44,030 --> 00:13:42,240
um a person and then there are variants

392
00:13:47,430 --> 00:13:44,040
of those concepts

393
00:13:47,990 --> 00:13:47,440
pan-enthism and psychism there's

394
00:13:49,350 --> 00:13:48,000
something

395
00:13:50,550 --> 00:13:49,360
i deal with those as well in the book

396
00:13:52,069 --> 00:13:50,560
but i so i look at these different

397
00:13:54,949 --> 00:13:52,079
philosophical options

398
00:13:56,470 --> 00:13:54,959
for explaining the crucial evidences

399
00:13:58,230 --> 00:13:56,480
that we have about the origin of the

400
00:14:00,310 --> 00:13:58,240
universe the origin of the fine-tuning

401
00:14:02,150 --> 00:14:00,320
of the universe and the origin of life

402
00:14:04,310 --> 00:14:02,160
and argue that theism provides the best

403
00:14:06,310 --> 00:14:04,320
overall uh explanation of

404
00:14:07,750 --> 00:14:06,320
those three classes of evidence looking

405
00:14:09,509 --> 00:14:07,760
at the competing if you will

406
00:14:11,030 --> 00:14:09,519
metaphysical hypotheses the different

407
00:14:12,550 --> 00:14:11,040
world views that you could adopt as a

408
00:14:15,990 --> 00:14:12,560
philosopher

409
00:14:17,509 --> 00:14:16,000
okay so let's dig into the um

410
00:14:19,509 --> 00:14:17,519
the three disc the three recent

411
00:14:22,790 --> 00:14:19,519
discoveries that you believe

412
00:14:25,509 --> 00:14:22,800
support this yeah absolutely

413
00:14:26,790 --> 00:14:25,519
uh they are number one that the universe

414
00:14:29,110 --> 00:14:26,800
had a beginning

415
00:14:30,069 --> 00:14:29,120
uh as best we can tell from both the

416
00:14:31,910 --> 00:14:30,079
evidence of

417
00:14:33,430 --> 00:14:31,920
observational astronomy and theoretical

418
00:14:35,670 --> 00:14:33,440
physics uh

419
00:14:36,629 --> 00:14:35,680
secondly that the universe has been

420
00:14:38,949 --> 00:14:36,639
finely tuned

421
00:14:41,110 --> 00:14:38,959
from the beginning and soon thereafter

422
00:14:44,389 --> 00:14:41,120
to it and by fine-tuning i mean

423
00:14:46,870 --> 00:14:44,399
precisely calibrated against all odds to

424
00:14:49,670 --> 00:14:46,880
allow for the possibility of life and

425
00:14:52,629 --> 00:14:49,680
even as it turns out basic chemistry

426
00:14:53,110 --> 00:14:52,639
and thirdly that at the foundation of

427
00:14:56,230 --> 00:14:53,120
life

428
00:14:59,110 --> 00:14:56,240
we have evidence of information

429
00:14:59,430 --> 00:14:59,120
in a functional and digital form in fact

430
00:15:06,069 --> 00:14:59,440
a

431
00:15:07,829 --> 00:15:06,079
in even the simplest living cells

432
00:15:08,949 --> 00:15:07,839
suggesting as i argue in the book the

433
00:15:12,870 --> 00:15:08,959
need for

434
00:15:15,350 --> 00:15:12,880
intelligent agent to

435
00:15:15,910 --> 00:15:15,360
generate that information okay so and

436
00:15:17,590 --> 00:15:15,920
let's take them

437
00:15:19,430 --> 00:15:17,600
one at a time so the first you're

438
00:15:21,829 --> 00:15:19,440
essentially talking about

439
00:15:23,110 --> 00:15:21,839
scientific discoveries in the past 100

440
00:15:25,269 --> 00:15:23,120
some odd years

441
00:15:26,230 --> 00:15:25,279
that tend to point to what's generally

442
00:15:28,949 --> 00:15:26,240
called the big bang

443
00:15:30,710 --> 00:15:28,959
the big bang sure which is what is

444
00:15:33,829 --> 00:15:30,720
commonly believed to be

445
00:15:35,829 --> 00:15:33,839
the creation of our universe so that

446
00:15:37,670 --> 00:15:35,839
the fact that you can point to a

447
00:15:41,269 --> 00:15:37,680
beginning

448
00:15:44,790 --> 00:15:41,279
aids in arguing that there was a creator

449
00:15:46,389 --> 00:15:44,800
correct um the the the story

450
00:15:48,310 --> 00:15:46,399
of the discovery the beginning is

451
00:15:49,910 --> 00:15:48,320
fascinating because you

452
00:15:51,430 --> 00:15:49,920
first get indications of that from

453
00:15:53,269 --> 00:15:51,440
observational astronomy in southern

454
00:15:56,710 --> 00:15:53,279
california where you are the uh

455
00:15:57,749 --> 00:15:56,720
mount wilson observatory um uh where

456
00:16:00,629 --> 00:15:57,759
hubble was

457
00:16:03,430 --> 00:16:00,639
they were able first to detect that the

458
00:16:06,230 --> 00:16:03,440
light coming from distant galaxies

459
00:16:09,509 --> 00:16:06,240
was being stretched out that the as if

460
00:16:12,949 --> 00:16:09,519
the galaxies were receding from us

461
00:16:13,910 --> 00:16:12,959
and light that's being stretched out has

462
00:16:18,069 --> 00:16:13,920
longer wavelengths

463
00:16:20,470 --> 00:16:18,079
redder end of the visible spectrum

464
00:16:21,269 --> 00:16:20,480
so this evidence is called the red shift

465
00:16:23,990 --> 00:16:21,279
evidence

466
00:16:25,509 --> 00:16:24,000
and it suggested a universe that was

467
00:16:27,430 --> 00:16:25,519
expanding outward

468
00:16:29,030 --> 00:16:27,440
in a roughly spherically symmetric way

469
00:16:32,069 --> 00:16:29,040
like a balloon

470
00:16:33,509 --> 00:16:32,079
and if you begin if you think of

471
00:16:34,790 --> 00:16:33,519
that in the forward direction of time

472
00:16:36,150 --> 00:16:34,800
you have an expanding universe but in

473
00:16:38,389 --> 00:16:36,160
the reverse direction of time

474
00:16:39,670 --> 00:16:38,399
the galactic material would be getting

475
00:16:40,870 --> 00:16:39,680
closer and would have been closer and

476
00:16:41,829 --> 00:16:40,880
closer and closer together and

477
00:16:43,910 --> 00:16:41,839
eventually

478
00:16:45,670 --> 00:16:43,920
converged on a point past which you

479
00:16:48,389 --> 00:16:45,680
cannot go

480
00:16:49,030 --> 00:16:48,399
physically speaking and that point would

481
00:16:50,550 --> 00:16:49,040
mark the

482
00:16:52,389 --> 00:16:50,560
beginning of the expansion and arguably

483
00:16:55,430 --> 00:16:52,399
the beginning of the universe

484
00:16:56,629 --> 00:16:55,440
that evidence from observational

485
00:16:58,389 --> 00:16:56,639
astronomy

486
00:17:00,069 --> 00:16:58,399
was reinforced by developments in

487
00:17:01,670 --> 00:17:00,079
theoretical physics

488
00:17:03,590 --> 00:17:01,680
starting mainly with einstein's new

489
00:17:03,990 --> 00:17:03,600
theory of gravity which was new in 1915

490
00:17:07,110 --> 00:17:04,000
not new

491
00:17:09,110 --> 00:17:07,120
now but uh called the idea of general

492
00:17:12,390 --> 00:17:09,120
relativity and the idea of that was that

493
00:17:17,429 --> 00:17:12,400
massive bodies are actually curving

494
00:17:21,270 --> 00:17:19,429
if you had more and more mass

495
00:17:23,270 --> 00:17:21,280
concentrated more densely

496
00:17:24,710 --> 00:17:23,280
in the reverse direction of time the

497
00:17:26,390 --> 00:17:24,720
curvature of space would be getting

498
00:17:29,430 --> 00:17:26,400
tighter and tighter and tighter

499
00:17:33,110 --> 00:17:29,440
and in 1966 stephen hawking and his

500
00:17:34,950 --> 00:17:33,120
phd thesis a chapter essentially

501
00:17:36,310 --> 00:17:34,960
proving that if you go back far enough

502
00:17:39,190 --> 00:17:36,320
you reach a limiting case where the

503
00:17:42,390 --> 00:17:39,200
curvature of space goes to an infinite

504
00:17:43,430 --> 00:17:42,400
corresponding to zero spatial volume and

505
00:17:46,150 --> 00:17:43,440
at that point

506
00:17:48,070 --> 00:17:46,160
when you have zero spatial volume that

507
00:17:49,590 --> 00:17:48,080
corresponds to also

508
00:17:52,230 --> 00:17:49,600
no mass you can't put anything in no

509
00:17:54,630 --> 00:17:52,240
space so it's a kind of a limiting case

510
00:17:55,990 --> 00:17:54,640
past which is the british astrophysicist

511
00:17:57,830 --> 00:17:56,000
paul davies has pointed out

512
00:17:59,750 --> 00:17:57,840
no physical reasoning is possible and

513
00:18:01,590 --> 00:17:59,760
that marks the beginning of the universe

514
00:18:03,110 --> 00:18:01,600
now there have been there's there there

515
00:18:05,830 --> 00:18:03,120
are ways around the

516
00:18:06,470 --> 00:18:05,840
what what hawking and his colleagues uh

517
00:18:08,789 --> 00:18:06,480
uh

518
00:18:10,870 --> 00:18:08,799
george ellis and roger penrose proved

519
00:18:13,190 --> 00:18:10,880
they're called singularity theorems

520
00:18:14,310 --> 00:18:13,200
there are ways around those uh but there

521
00:18:16,310 --> 00:18:14,320
have been other other

522
00:18:17,590 --> 00:18:16,320
proofs from theoretical physics based on

523
00:18:19,430 --> 00:18:17,600
special relativity

524
00:18:20,710 --> 00:18:19,440
that also established that time itself

525
00:18:23,510 --> 00:18:20,720
had a beginning

526
00:18:24,789 --> 00:18:23,520
and and so that as i argue in the book

527
00:18:25,830 --> 00:18:24,799
that is best we can tell the universe

528
00:18:27,190 --> 00:18:25,840
had a beginning and even

529
00:18:29,029 --> 00:18:27,200
even the cosmological models that

530
00:18:31,029 --> 00:18:29,039
attempt to circumvent the beginning end

531
00:18:34,230 --> 00:18:31,039
up presupposing the singularity

532
00:18:35,830 --> 00:18:34,240
and they have uh theistic implications

533
00:18:37,350 --> 00:18:35,840
for other reasons

534
00:18:39,029 --> 00:18:37,360
this is highly significant from a

535
00:18:40,150 --> 00:18:39,039
philosophical point of view because if

536
00:18:43,190 --> 00:18:40,160
you think of matter

537
00:18:45,110 --> 00:18:43,200
space time and energy beginning to exist

538
00:18:46,870 --> 00:18:45,120
you can't really explain the origin of

539
00:18:48,710 --> 00:18:46,880
the universe in materialistic terms

540
00:18:50,710 --> 00:18:48,720
there was no matter prior to the origin

541
00:18:53,590 --> 00:18:50,720
of matter to do the causing

542
00:18:55,190 --> 00:18:53,600
and so this is a profoundly it was a

543
00:18:57,190 --> 00:18:55,200
very unsettling result for many

544
00:18:58,950 --> 00:18:57,200
scientific materialists

545
00:19:00,230 --> 00:18:58,960
robert jastrow from the goddard space

546
00:19:01,669 --> 00:19:00,240
institute

547
00:19:03,590 --> 00:19:01,679
memorably wrote a book called god in the

548
00:19:07,110 --> 00:19:03,600
astronomers

549
00:19:08,789 --> 00:19:07,120
concluding that the the story of the

550
00:19:10,310 --> 00:19:08,799
discovery the beginning ends like a bad

551
00:19:11,830 --> 00:19:10,320
dream for scientists who have lived by

552
00:19:14,310 --> 00:19:11,840
the power of reason he says they

553
00:19:16,150 --> 00:19:14,320
they scale the highest peak and they

554
00:19:18,070 --> 00:19:16,160
confront a band of theologians that have

555
00:19:19,909 --> 00:19:18,080
been waiting there for centuries so

556
00:19:21,190 --> 00:19:19,919
um but the big problem is how do you

557
00:19:22,950 --> 00:19:21,200
explain the origin of the material

558
00:19:24,870 --> 00:19:22,960
universe before there was

559
00:19:26,230 --> 00:19:24,880
matter to cause it to come into

560
00:19:28,390 --> 00:19:26,240
existence the

561
00:19:30,230 --> 00:19:28,400
the nature of the event requires a cause

562
00:19:31,590 --> 00:19:30,240
which transcends

563
00:19:33,430 --> 00:19:31,600
matter space time and energy the

564
00:19:35,190 --> 00:19:33,440
material realm

565
00:19:37,190 --> 00:19:35,200
yeah we don't have a scientific

566
00:19:37,990 --> 00:19:37,200
explanation for the moments before the

567
00:19:40,150 --> 00:19:38,000
big bang right

568
00:19:41,510 --> 00:19:40,160
that's the big opening unsettled

569
00:19:44,230 --> 00:19:41,520
question well you

570
00:19:45,350 --> 00:19:44,240
in a sense you can't have uh i would say

571
00:19:47,990 --> 00:19:45,360
um

572
00:19:49,510 --> 00:19:48,000
you know how we define science is is up

573
00:19:51,590 --> 00:19:49,520
for grabs because this is a

574
00:19:52,789 --> 00:19:51,600
an area where you're you've got a

575
00:19:53,990 --> 00:19:52,799
scientific and philosophical

576
00:19:56,310 --> 00:19:54,000
considerations

577
00:19:57,510 --> 00:19:56,320
what you can't have is a materialistic

578
00:19:59,990 --> 00:19:57,520
explanation

579
00:20:01,669 --> 00:20:00,000
is not materialistic maybe you don't

580
00:20:05,270 --> 00:20:01,679
call that scientific that's okay

581
00:20:07,029 --> 00:20:05,280
but the point is that you can't explain

582
00:20:08,870 --> 00:20:07,039
the origin of the physical universe by

583
00:20:10,630 --> 00:20:08,880
reference to physics because it's

584
00:20:12,230 --> 00:20:10,640
it's the physical universe and physics

585
00:20:14,070 --> 00:20:12,240
that come into existence at that point

586
00:20:15,510 --> 00:20:14,080
in time you can't explain it materially

587
00:20:16,870 --> 00:20:15,520
materialistically because it's matter

588
00:20:18,310 --> 00:20:16,880
and energy that come into existence at

589
00:20:20,950 --> 00:20:18,320
that point in time

590
00:20:21,750 --> 00:20:20,960
uh robert dickey this uh famous

591
00:20:23,669 --> 00:20:21,760
physicist at

592
00:20:25,270 --> 00:20:23,679
uh princeton said an infinitely old

593
00:20:26,630 --> 00:20:25,280
universe would relieve us of the

594
00:20:28,630 --> 00:20:26,640
necessity of explaining

595
00:20:29,990 --> 00:20:28,640
the origin of matter at any finite time

596
00:20:33,110 --> 00:20:30,000
in the past

597
00:20:36,390 --> 00:20:33,120
um so if we

598
00:20:39,510 --> 00:20:36,400
we we see a beginning there and

599
00:20:40,149 --> 00:20:39,520
no scientific explanation for how that

600
00:20:41,909 --> 00:20:40,159
began

601
00:20:44,390 --> 00:20:41,919
the beginning took place right

602
00:20:46,789 --> 00:20:44,400
essentially or whatever

603
00:20:47,750 --> 00:20:46,799
but okay but then let's talk about god

604
00:20:51,350 --> 00:20:47,760
so

605
00:20:54,549 --> 00:20:51,360
when did god come into existence

606
00:20:55,350 --> 00:20:54,559
uh the point that i have made is that

607
00:20:58,070 --> 00:20:55,360
every

608
00:20:59,190 --> 00:20:58,080
philosophical system has to posit

609
00:21:02,230 --> 00:20:59,200
something as what

610
00:21:05,510 --> 00:21:02,240
philosophers call a primitive or the

611
00:21:06,950 --> 00:21:05,520
ultimate or prime reality prior to the

612
00:21:07,590 --> 00:21:06,960
discovery that the universe had a

613
00:21:09,350 --> 00:21:07,600
beginning

614
00:21:11,909 --> 00:21:09,360
the default way of thinking among many

615
00:21:13,270 --> 00:21:11,919
scientists and philosophers

616
00:21:14,870 --> 00:21:13,280
in some cases going all the way back to

617
00:21:16,310 --> 00:21:14,880
the ancient greeks but certainly through

618
00:21:18,549 --> 00:21:16,320
the 19th century

619
00:21:20,789 --> 00:21:18,559
was the idea that the universe was

620
00:21:22,390 --> 00:21:20,799
eternal and self-existent it had always

621
00:21:25,190 --> 00:21:22,400
been here and therefore

622
00:21:27,350 --> 00:21:25,200
per the quotation from professor dickie

623
00:21:29,350 --> 00:21:27,360
at princeton that i just cited

624
00:21:30,630 --> 00:21:29,360
there was no need to explain the origin

625
00:21:32,789 --> 00:21:30,640
of the universe

626
00:21:34,070 --> 00:21:32,799
in terms of anything else it was the

627
00:21:35,830 --> 00:21:34,080
primary thing

628
00:21:37,830 --> 00:21:35,840
by which we explain everything else it

629
00:21:40,630 --> 00:21:37,840
was the thing that had always been here

630
00:21:43,029 --> 00:21:40,640
uh carl sagan in his famous cosmos

631
00:21:46,390 --> 00:21:43,039
series which was rebooted by neil

632
00:21:49,110 --> 00:21:46,400
degrasse tyson recently had his famous

633
00:21:51,029 --> 00:21:49,120
sort of scientific naturalist mantra the

634
00:21:52,870 --> 00:21:51,039
universe is all there is all there ever

635
00:21:55,029 --> 00:21:52,880
was all there ever will be

636
00:21:55,909 --> 00:21:55,039
well it turns out the universe was not

637
00:21:57,510 --> 00:21:55,919
always here

638
00:21:58,950 --> 00:21:57,520
and therefore it can't be invoked as the

639
00:22:00,070 --> 00:21:58,960
fundamental thing from which everything

640
00:22:01,750 --> 00:22:00,080
else comes

641
00:22:04,310 --> 00:22:01,760
uh but something in every system of

642
00:22:06,310 --> 00:22:04,320
thought functions in that role and so

643
00:22:07,350 --> 00:22:06,320
the in theism the thing that has always

644
00:22:09,909 --> 00:22:07,360
been here

645
00:22:11,510 --> 00:22:09,919
that uh is the prime reality that is the

646
00:22:11,990 --> 00:22:11,520
thing from which everything else comes

647
00:22:14,870 --> 00:22:12,000
is

648
00:22:16,390 --> 00:22:14,880
god and if you the new cosmology

649
00:22:19,110 --> 00:22:16,400
suggests that

650
00:22:20,630 --> 00:22:19,120
that the theistic metaphysics is more

651
00:22:22,310 --> 00:22:20,640
consistent with the reality than the

652
00:22:24,870 --> 00:22:22,320
naturalistic or materialistic

653
00:22:27,669 --> 00:22:24,880
universe or metaphysics in other words

654
00:22:30,549 --> 00:22:27,679
um the the

655
00:22:31,430 --> 00:22:30,559
the physical universe is a bad candidate

656
00:22:32,710 --> 00:22:31,440
to be

657
00:22:34,549 --> 00:22:32,720
the thing from which everything else

658
00:22:36,789 --> 00:22:34,559
comes because it itself comes into

659
00:22:37,590 --> 00:22:36,799
existence a finite time ago it has a

660
00:22:40,870 --> 00:22:37,600
beginning

661
00:22:43,990 --> 00:22:40,880
and and therefore would need to be

662
00:22:47,270 --> 00:22:44,000
created by something outside itself and

663
00:22:48,390 --> 00:22:47,280
there's something else um just to go

664
00:22:49,990 --> 00:22:48,400
there for a moment then i want to move

665
00:22:52,390 --> 00:22:50,000
on to number two

666
00:22:53,510 --> 00:22:52,400
theoretically that is what has been

667
00:22:57,350 --> 00:22:53,520
around forever

668
00:22:59,110 --> 00:22:57,360
this personal god correct we're positing

669
00:23:00,789 --> 00:22:59,120
as the prime reality something other

670
00:23:02,149 --> 00:23:00,799
than the universe

671
00:23:04,310 --> 00:23:02,159
given that the universe hasn't always

672
00:23:07,029 --> 00:23:04,320
been here right and what about

673
00:23:08,230 --> 00:23:07,039
the purpose of god creating what he

674
00:23:11,110 --> 00:23:08,240
created do you

675
00:23:13,270 --> 00:23:11,120
get into theories on that uh we can

676
00:23:14,149 --> 00:23:13,280
detect purpose of intelligence without

677
00:23:16,390 --> 00:23:14,159
knowing

678
00:23:17,750 --> 00:23:16,400
all the purposes a and intelligence

679
00:23:20,950 --> 00:23:17,760
might have

680
00:23:22,710 --> 00:23:20,960
so i argue that the fine-tuning of the

681
00:23:26,470 --> 00:23:22,720
universe suggests that a purpose of

682
00:23:30,230 --> 00:23:26,480
intelligence was responsible i don't uh

683
00:23:32,950 --> 00:23:30,240
i don't attempt to discern

684
00:23:34,630 --> 00:23:32,960
all the thoughts of the deity but rather

685
00:23:36,070 --> 00:23:34,640
simply that the deity had thoughts and

686
00:23:37,270 --> 00:23:36,080
that they were expressed in this in the

687
00:23:39,190 --> 00:23:37,280
structure of the universe that was

688
00:23:41,269 --> 00:23:39,200
produced that made life possible

689
00:23:42,470 --> 00:23:41,279
um okay so let's go to i think because i

690
00:23:44,390 --> 00:23:42,480
think number two

691
00:23:47,269 --> 00:23:44,400
envelopes that the fine-tuning part

692
00:23:50,310 --> 00:23:47,279
right that you're saying we've seen

693
00:23:51,830 --> 00:23:50,320
fine-tuning in evolution

694
00:23:53,830 --> 00:23:51,840
can i can i make one more point about

695
00:23:55,590 --> 00:23:53,840
the origin of the universe the method of

696
00:23:56,630 --> 00:23:55,600
reasoning i use is the method that's

697
00:23:58,630 --> 00:23:56,640
used

698
00:24:00,070 --> 00:23:58,640
by historical scientists and that is the

699
00:24:01,269 --> 00:24:00,080
method of inference to the best

700
00:24:03,590 --> 00:24:01,279
explanation

701
00:24:04,390 --> 00:24:03,600
when you're looking at the evidence that

702
00:24:07,430 --> 00:24:04,400
the universe had

703
00:24:09,350 --> 00:24:07,440
a beginning um it then suggest

704
00:24:11,430 --> 00:24:09,360
then that leads you to ask well what

705
00:24:13,269 --> 00:24:11,440
what sort of metaphysics

706
00:24:14,630 --> 00:24:13,279
uh what sort of metaphysical hypothesis

707
00:24:17,110 --> 00:24:14,640
could explain that

708
00:24:18,630 --> 00:24:17,120
materialism fails because matter is what

709
00:24:20,630 --> 00:24:18,640
comes into existence so

710
00:24:21,830 --> 00:24:20,640
materialism is a metaphysical system of

711
00:24:25,590 --> 00:24:21,840
thought fails

712
00:24:28,070 --> 00:24:25,600
um but both theism and deism posit

713
00:24:29,830 --> 00:24:28,080
an entity that is transcendent beyond

714
00:24:30,950 --> 00:24:29,840
the material universe that could act as

715
00:24:32,950 --> 00:24:30,960
a cause so they

716
00:24:34,470 --> 00:24:32,960
they function as better explanations

717
00:24:37,029 --> 00:24:34,480
than a materialistic

718
00:24:38,470 --> 00:24:37,039
uh worldview so i'm actually using the

719
00:24:39,830 --> 00:24:38,480
the method of inference to the best

720
00:24:42,630 --> 00:24:39,840
explanation use common

721
00:24:43,590 --> 00:24:42,640
commonly in science as well as in

722
00:24:46,870 --> 00:24:43,600
philosophy

723
00:24:49,269 --> 00:24:46,880
to adjudicate or assess the competing

724
00:24:52,470 --> 00:24:49,279
worldviews or metaphysical hypotheses

725
00:24:54,630 --> 00:24:52,480
right still just a theory obviously

726
00:24:56,310 --> 00:24:54,640
sure we're using our reasoning to try to

727
00:24:57,110 --> 00:24:56,320
make the best sense of the evidence that

728
00:24:59,990 --> 00:24:57,120
we have

729
00:25:00,789 --> 00:25:00,000
right and and we're kind of filling in a

730
00:25:03,110 --> 00:25:00,799
blank

731
00:25:04,630 --> 00:25:03,120
that we don't know but you know i could

732
00:25:07,190 --> 00:25:04,640
argue on the other side that well

733
00:25:08,390 --> 00:25:07,200
we've filled in blanks before that

734
00:25:10,950 --> 00:25:08,400
science then later

735
00:25:11,990 --> 00:25:10,960
filled in well it's it's how all science

736
00:25:14,549 --> 00:25:12,000
reasons and in fact

737
00:25:15,269 --> 00:25:14,559
all theor you know much of science uh if

738
00:25:17,350 --> 00:25:15,279
we mean by

739
00:25:18,789 --> 00:25:17,360
if if our definition of knowledge is the

740
00:25:21,110 --> 00:25:18,799
thing the only things we know are the

741
00:25:23,990 --> 00:25:21,120
things that we can directly observe

742
00:25:25,830 --> 00:25:24,000
then most of science is not would not

743
00:25:27,830 --> 00:25:25,840
constitute knowledge but we make

744
00:25:29,029 --> 00:25:27,840
inferences in science from things we can

745
00:25:31,350 --> 00:25:29,039
observe to things that we

746
00:25:32,230 --> 00:25:31,360
we don't observe theoretical physics is

747
00:25:33,269 --> 00:25:32,240
full of it we

748
00:25:35,830 --> 00:25:33,279
we think there are things called

749
00:25:36,390 --> 00:25:35,840
electrons and protons and neutrons and

750
00:25:38,390 --> 00:25:36,400
atoms

751
00:25:40,149 --> 00:25:38,400
we don't directly see those but we see

752
00:25:41,029 --> 00:25:40,159
effects that lead us to infer their

753
00:25:42,310 --> 00:25:41,039
existence it's

754
00:25:44,310 --> 00:25:42,320
how we came to know about the dna

755
00:25:45,750 --> 00:25:44,320
molecule as well right so

756
00:25:47,430 --> 00:25:45,760
i'm using that same method of reasoning

757
00:25:51,510 --> 00:25:47,440
reasoning from things we can see

758
00:25:53,029 --> 00:25:51,520
to uh affirm the existence of the most

759
00:25:55,110 --> 00:25:53,039
the thing that would best explain the

760
00:25:55,590 --> 00:25:55,120
things that we do see and in this case

761
00:26:02,310 --> 00:25:55,600
that

762
00:26:03,430 --> 00:26:02,320
in science um so the big bang being one

763
00:26:06,230 --> 00:26:03,440
of them i mean big bang

764
00:26:07,029 --> 00:26:06,240
is still technically a theory because we

765
00:26:12,310 --> 00:26:07,039
haven't

766
00:26:14,230 --> 00:26:12,320
proven it maybe you would disagree with

767
00:26:17,190 --> 00:26:14,240
that but i mean we've we've

768
00:26:18,149 --> 00:26:17,200
to a certain level scientific certainty

769
00:26:21,029 --> 00:26:18,159
it's believed

770
00:26:22,789 --> 00:26:21,039
that it happened well right we don't

771
00:26:25,029 --> 00:26:22,799
prove things in science that

772
00:26:27,029 --> 00:26:25,039
uh mathematicians prove things from

773
00:26:27,909 --> 00:26:27,039
axioms and they reason deductively from

774
00:26:30,230 --> 00:26:27,919
axioms

775
00:26:31,430 --> 00:26:30,240
scientists attempt to formulate theories

776
00:26:33,909 --> 00:26:31,440
and they affirm

777
00:26:36,310 --> 00:26:33,919
as most likely to be true those theories

778
00:26:38,789 --> 00:26:36,320
that provide the best explanations

779
00:26:40,470 --> 00:26:38,799
of the evidence at hand and i'm using

780
00:26:42,630 --> 00:26:40,480
that same method of reasoning

781
00:26:44,470 --> 00:26:42,640
to affirm first that there is evidence

782
00:26:46,310 --> 00:26:44,480
of a designing intelligence

783
00:26:48,149 --> 00:26:46,320
uh responsible for life but secondly

784
00:26:50,710 --> 00:26:48,159
that the designing intelligence

785
00:26:53,029 --> 00:26:50,720
responsible for life in the universe

786
00:26:54,390 --> 00:26:53,039
most likely has the attributes that jews

787
00:26:56,549 --> 00:26:54,400
and christians have always ascribed to

788
00:26:59,590 --> 00:26:56,559
god

789
00:27:00,230 --> 00:26:59,600
so whereas the big bang has been proven

790
00:27:01,750 --> 00:27:00,240
to

791
00:27:04,549 --> 00:27:01,760
a pretty high degree of certainty at

792
00:27:06,549 --> 00:27:04,559
least among the scientific community

793
00:27:08,470 --> 00:27:06,559
what you're positing as far as what

794
00:27:12,149 --> 00:27:08,480
precedes the big bang

795
00:27:13,750 --> 00:27:12,159
is is a theory that that fits it it

796
00:27:14,470 --> 00:27:13,760
certainly can't be disproven at this

797
00:27:16,070 --> 00:27:14,480
point

798
00:27:17,830 --> 00:27:16,080
and you're saying you believe is

799
00:27:19,110 --> 00:27:17,840
essentially the best theory that's out

800
00:27:22,070 --> 00:27:19,120
there at the moment

801
00:27:22,789 --> 00:27:22,080
well the the big bang is an event it's

802
00:27:25,350 --> 00:27:22,799
the first

803
00:27:26,950 --> 00:27:25,360
event of the universe in which matter

804
00:27:28,630 --> 00:27:26,960
and energy burst into existence and

805
00:27:31,909 --> 00:27:28,640
begin to expand

806
00:27:34,070 --> 00:27:31,919
um we posited the big bang as an

807
00:27:35,750 --> 00:27:34,080
explanation for other evidences that we

808
00:27:37,669 --> 00:27:35,760
could see

809
00:27:39,669 --> 00:27:37,679
the red shift the cosmic background

810
00:27:42,789 --> 00:27:39,679
radiation anomalies and the cosmic

811
00:27:45,269 --> 00:27:42,799
background radiation etc

812
00:27:45,990 --> 00:27:45,279
so using the same method of reasoning

813
00:27:47,750 --> 00:27:46,000
now we

814
00:27:49,590 --> 00:27:47,760
take the big bang the beginning of the

815
00:27:54,070 --> 00:27:49,600
universe the fact of the beginning as

816
00:27:57,590 --> 00:27:54,080
a a point of data i'm now asking well

817
00:28:00,950 --> 00:27:57,600
among the competing explanations

818
00:28:02,310 --> 00:28:00,960
for that what would provide the best

819
00:28:03,909 --> 00:28:02,320
what would provide the best causal

820
00:28:05,350 --> 00:28:03,919
explanation of the universe having a

821
00:28:07,430 --> 00:28:05,360
beginning so i'm using the exact same

822
00:28:10,070 --> 00:28:07,440
method of reasoning

823
00:28:11,990 --> 00:28:10,080
and if you evaluate the competing the

824
00:28:14,950 --> 00:28:12,000
competing alternatives

825
00:28:16,389 --> 00:28:14,960
uh materialism pantheism deism theism

826
00:28:17,830 --> 00:28:16,399
for example

827
00:28:19,430 --> 00:28:17,840
deism and theism provide good

828
00:28:21,510 --> 00:28:19,440
explanations for

829
00:28:23,190 --> 00:28:21,520
a beginning pantheism and materialism

830
00:28:26,149 --> 00:28:23,200
don't so they're to be preferred as

831
00:28:29,510 --> 00:28:26,159
better explanations

832
00:28:31,590 --> 00:28:29,520
okay let's go to the the fine-tuning

833
00:28:32,789 --> 00:28:31,600
elements which you say provides further

834
00:28:36,149 --> 00:28:32,799
evidence

835
00:28:38,549 --> 00:28:36,159
of your theory um because broadly

836
00:28:40,470 --> 00:28:38,559
speaking when i think of the big bang

837
00:28:41,909 --> 00:28:40,480
i think of that being the beginning of

838
00:28:45,990 --> 00:28:41,919
evolution

839
00:28:48,310 --> 00:28:46,000
about uh you know is darwinism type

840
00:28:50,070 --> 00:28:48,320
evolution where we see the species you

841
00:28:51,430 --> 00:28:50,080
know changing in from one thing to

842
00:28:54,310 --> 00:28:51,440
another but

843
00:28:55,029 --> 00:28:54,320
uh from my kind of simplistic view of

844
00:28:56,710 --> 00:28:55,039
things that

845
00:28:58,710 --> 00:28:56,720
evolution really started with the big

846
00:29:00,070 --> 00:28:58,720
bang and you have

847
00:29:01,830 --> 00:29:00,080
things evolving and evolving and

848
00:29:04,149 --> 00:29:01,840
evolving as this universe is

849
00:29:04,950 --> 00:29:04,159
cosmic evolution stellar evolution yeah

850
00:29:08,310 --> 00:29:04,960
exactly right

851
00:29:11,110 --> 00:29:08,320
galactic evolution there you go and and

852
00:29:12,789 --> 00:29:11,120
galaxies are formed and stars are formed

853
00:29:15,029 --> 00:29:12,799
and planets are formed in solar systems

854
00:29:18,149 --> 00:29:15,039
and so on and

855
00:29:21,190 --> 00:29:18,159
it and then things

856
00:29:21,990 --> 00:29:21,200
start happening on some of these planets

857
00:29:24,389 --> 00:29:22,000
in particular

858
00:29:26,470 --> 00:29:24,399
earth right and that things start

859
00:29:28,549 --> 00:29:26,480
evolving on earth and

860
00:29:30,310 --> 00:29:28,559
that evolution just provides kind of the

861
00:29:31,029 --> 00:29:30,320
perfect explanation for everything that

862
00:29:33,830 --> 00:29:31,039
we've seen

863
00:29:34,389 --> 00:29:33,840
or can observe and study from the big

864
00:29:37,669 --> 00:29:34,399
bang

865
00:29:41,190 --> 00:29:37,679
forward you're saying that no actually

866
00:29:44,230 --> 00:29:41,200
there's things that can't be explained

867
00:29:45,909 --> 00:29:44,240
by cosmic evolution slash human

868
00:29:49,830 --> 00:29:45,919
evolution

869
00:29:52,149 --> 00:29:49,840
of different things if it means

870
00:29:53,990 --> 00:29:52,159
it can mean change over time okay so the

871
00:29:55,269 --> 00:29:54,000
universe is changing over time from the

872
00:29:57,350 --> 00:29:55,279
beginning until now

873
00:29:58,870 --> 00:29:57,360
it can also refer to the very specific

874
00:30:00,870 --> 00:29:58,880
claims about

875
00:30:02,310 --> 00:30:00,880
certain mechanisms that are responsible

876
00:30:04,950 --> 00:30:02,320
for certain types of change

877
00:30:07,029 --> 00:30:04,960
so uh and and with that the notion that

878
00:30:09,110 --> 00:30:07,039
these changes are completely undirected

879
00:30:11,269 --> 00:30:09,120
or unguided and taking place only as the

880
00:30:13,029 --> 00:30:11,279
result of natural processes

881
00:30:15,029 --> 00:30:13,039
so when you get to the ex trying to

882
00:30:16,870 --> 00:30:15,039
explain the origin of the first cell on

883
00:30:19,110 --> 00:30:16,880
planet earth

884
00:30:21,669 --> 00:30:19,120
the the theories that have been proposed

885
00:30:24,549 --> 00:30:21,679
usually fall under the heading of

886
00:30:26,389 --> 00:30:24,559
evolutionary abiogenesis or chemical

887
00:30:28,870 --> 00:30:26,399
evolutionary theory

888
00:30:30,070 --> 00:30:28,880
and the idea there is that the first

889
00:30:32,310 --> 00:30:30,080
life arose as a

890
00:30:34,549 --> 00:30:32,320
series as a result of a series of

891
00:30:37,990 --> 00:30:34,559
undirected evolutionary changes

892
00:30:41,029 --> 00:30:38,000
in among uh

893
00:30:42,149 --> 00:30:41,039
non-living chemicals over a vast amount

894
00:30:44,070 --> 00:30:42,159
of time

895
00:30:46,230 --> 00:30:44,080
as we've attempted to simulate that in

896
00:30:49,669 --> 00:30:46,240
the laboratory

897
00:30:51,909 --> 00:30:49,679
those processes turn out to be

898
00:30:53,510 --> 00:30:51,919
the the the chemistry that inc occurs

899
00:30:55,029 --> 00:30:53,520
naturally doesn't

900
00:30:56,710 --> 00:30:55,039
tend to lead in a life-friendly

901
00:30:58,310 --> 00:30:56,720
direction and

902
00:30:59,830 --> 00:30:58,320
uh the only way to get it to move a

903
00:31:01,430 --> 00:30:59,840
little bit in a life-friendly direction

904
00:31:02,630 --> 00:31:01,440
is to manipulate it with intel

905
00:31:04,549 --> 00:31:02,640
the intelligent design of the

906
00:31:06,149 --> 00:31:04,559
experimentalist which doesn't really

907
00:31:09,830 --> 00:31:06,159
simulate an undirected

908
00:31:12,470 --> 00:31:09,840
unguided process of evolution so

909
00:31:13,269 --> 00:31:12,480
the origin of the first life is a huge

910
00:31:14,389 --> 00:31:13,279
unsolved

911
00:31:16,789 --> 00:31:14,399
problem from the standpoint of

912
00:31:18,789 --> 00:31:16,799
evolutionary theory in part because

913
00:31:21,029 --> 00:31:18,799
of the growing awareness we have of the

914
00:31:21,990 --> 00:31:21,039
integrated informational complexity that

915
00:31:25,350 --> 00:31:22,000
we're finding in living

916
00:31:26,870 --> 00:31:25,360
systems um 19 yeah go ahead

917
00:31:29,350 --> 00:31:26,880
well yeah i want to make sure i'm

918
00:31:31,590 --> 00:31:29,360
understanding so

919
00:31:33,430 --> 00:31:31,600
where you're saying we lack a good

920
00:31:36,070 --> 00:31:33,440
scientific explanation

921
00:31:36,470 --> 00:31:36,080
is the appearance of the first living

922
00:31:38,710 --> 00:31:36,480
cell

923
00:31:40,070 --> 00:31:38,720
on earth is that what you're saying

924
00:31:41,909 --> 00:31:40,080
where we lack a good

925
00:31:43,590 --> 00:31:41,919
evolutionary explanation is the

926
00:31:45,590 --> 00:31:43,600
appearance of the first

927
00:31:48,310 --> 00:31:45,600
living cell on earth i think intelligent

928
00:31:50,149 --> 00:31:48,320
design is a good scientific explanation

929
00:31:51,750 --> 00:31:50,159
for some of the features of those cells

930
00:31:54,870 --> 00:31:51,760
in particular the the

931
00:31:56,630 --> 00:31:54,880
origin of the the digital code and the

932
00:31:58,149 --> 00:31:56,640
information processing systems that have

933
00:31:59,430 --> 00:31:58,159
been discovered inside cells

934
00:32:02,070 --> 00:31:59,440
okay let's stick with that cell for a

935
00:32:04,389 --> 00:32:02,080
second so this single cell

936
00:32:05,750 --> 00:32:04,399
right that's the mystery how the single

937
00:32:09,110 --> 00:32:05,760
living cell was created

938
00:32:12,149 --> 00:32:09,120
which was in the ocean somewhere right

939
00:32:13,029 --> 00:32:12,159
presumably or a hydrothermal vent or i

940
00:32:16,389 --> 00:32:13,039
mean people have been

941
00:32:18,630 --> 00:32:16,399
uh formulating all kinds of

942
00:32:19,909 --> 00:32:18,640
hypotheses about where a suitable

943
00:32:21,590 --> 00:32:19,919
environment might have

944
00:32:23,269 --> 00:32:21,600
been for this chemical evolutionary

945
00:32:24,870 --> 00:32:23,279
process to take place but that was the

946
00:32:27,750 --> 00:32:24,880
original idea was uh

947
00:32:28,950 --> 00:32:27,760
and have we or have we not found a

948
00:32:31,509 --> 00:32:28,960
prebiotic soup

949
00:32:32,149 --> 00:32:31,519
basically yeah right okay have we or

950
00:32:35,350 --> 00:32:32,159
have we not

951
00:32:38,070 --> 00:32:35,360
found a single living cell on

952
00:32:39,350 --> 00:32:38,080
for instance mars no we have not found a

953
00:32:42,950 --> 00:32:39,360
single living cell

954
00:32:44,070 --> 00:32:42,960
on mars we found water right water right

955
00:32:45,990 --> 00:32:44,080
but we haven't been able to take a

956
00:32:47,990 --> 00:32:46,000
sample

957
00:32:49,029 --> 00:32:48,000
water is a necessary but nowhere near

958
00:32:52,789 --> 00:32:49,039
sufficient condition

959
00:32:53,750 --> 00:32:52,799
of of life and we didn't find it on the

960
00:32:57,029 --> 00:32:53,760
moon

961
00:32:59,669 --> 00:32:57,039
was

962
00:33:00,230 --> 00:32:59,679
uh we found i have a colleague who jokes

963
00:33:03,990 --> 00:33:00,240
about

964
00:33:06,470 --> 00:33:04,000
finding buicks on io the jovian moon the

965
00:33:08,389 --> 00:33:06,480
moon of jupiter because they found some

966
00:33:09,269 --> 00:33:08,399
evidence of iron or something on one of

967
00:33:11,990 --> 00:33:09,279
the uh

968
00:33:13,590 --> 00:33:12,000
the moons and he said well it's short

969
00:33:15,430 --> 00:33:13,600
you need iron to make to make

970
00:33:17,190 --> 00:33:15,440
cars so therefore there must be buicks

971
00:33:18,789 --> 00:33:17,200
on io but this has been one of the

972
00:33:20,070 --> 00:33:18,799
fallacies in a lot of science reporting

973
00:33:23,110 --> 00:33:20,080
if you find some

974
00:33:24,710 --> 00:33:23,120
constitutive element of a living system

975
00:33:25,509 --> 00:33:24,720
then people jump to the conclusion that

976
00:33:27,190 --> 00:33:25,519
hey it's

977
00:33:28,870 --> 00:33:27,200
easy to produce life in these other

978
00:33:30,470 --> 00:33:28,880
environments but there's a difference

979
00:33:31,990 --> 00:33:30,480
between a necessary and a sufficient

980
00:33:33,669 --> 00:33:32,000
condition

981
00:33:35,029 --> 00:33:33,679
so water is necessary but nowhere near

982
00:33:37,830 --> 00:33:35,039
sufficient producing

983
00:33:38,950 --> 00:33:37,840
once we're able to do more experiments

984
00:33:42,149 --> 00:33:38,960
on mars

985
00:33:44,070 --> 00:33:42,159
do you believe it's possible we will

986
00:33:45,750 --> 00:33:44,080
find a living cell on mars

987
00:33:47,269 --> 00:33:45,760
i think it's i mean obviously anything's

988
00:33:48,470 --> 00:33:47,279
possible but i mean likely

989
00:33:50,149 --> 00:33:48,480
it wouldn't be a matter of experiments

990
00:33:51,590 --> 00:33:50,159
it'd be a question of whether they were

991
00:33:52,630 --> 00:33:51,600
whether there was life there or not i

992
00:33:54,470 --> 00:33:52,640
don't think there's there are

993
00:33:55,430 --> 00:33:54,480
good indications that there is i don't

994
00:33:57,029 --> 00:33:55,440
think it's likely that there will be

995
00:33:59,990 --> 00:33:57,039
life found on mars

996
00:34:01,509 --> 00:34:00,000
but the the question of where life is is

997
00:34:02,070 --> 00:34:01,519
separate from the question of how it

998
00:34:05,669 --> 00:34:02,080
would be

999
00:34:08,069 --> 00:34:05,679
how what it would take to produce it um

1000
00:34:09,909 --> 00:34:08,079
let's say that you went to antarctica

1001
00:34:11,990 --> 00:34:09,919
and you were an explorer

1002
00:34:14,550 --> 00:34:12,000
and you had assumed that there was never

1003
00:34:17,829 --> 00:34:14,560
any intelligent life on antarctica

1004
00:34:18,710 --> 00:34:17,839
but you entered a large cave and lo and

1005
00:34:19,990 --> 00:34:18,720
behold as you

1006
00:34:22,310 --> 00:34:20,000
entered the cave you found that there

1007
00:34:23,109 --> 00:34:22,320
were these scratchings on the wall that

1008
00:34:25,030 --> 00:34:23,119
looked like

1009
00:34:26,710 --> 00:34:25,040
maybe egyptian hieroglyphs or some

1010
00:34:29,589 --> 00:34:26,720
something similar to that and then

1011
00:34:31,829 --> 00:34:29,599
associated with these symbols there were

1012
00:34:33,669 --> 00:34:31,839
actually drawings of different types of

1013
00:34:35,430 --> 00:34:33,679
animals indigenous to that maybe

1014
00:34:36,950 --> 00:34:35,440
penguins or something

1015
00:34:39,270 --> 00:34:36,960
and as you studied them for a while you

1016
00:34:40,629 --> 00:34:39,280
correlated the pictographs with the

1017
00:34:42,550 --> 00:34:40,639
symbols and you realize no this was an

1018
00:34:43,909 --> 00:34:42,560
informational script

1019
00:34:46,230 --> 00:34:43,919
though you had previously thought that

1020
00:34:47,909 --> 00:34:46,240
there was no intelligent life

1021
00:34:49,030 --> 00:34:47,919
on antarctica that no one had ever lived

1022
00:34:50,389 --> 00:34:49,040
there you would have to change your

1023
00:34:52,230 --> 00:34:50,399
assessment because you had discovered

1024
00:34:54,310 --> 00:34:52,240
information and you know of only one

1025
00:34:55,510 --> 00:34:54,320
cause of the origin of information and

1026
00:34:56,629 --> 00:34:55,520
that's mind

1027
00:34:58,710 --> 00:34:56,639
the scientists looking for

1028
00:35:00,950 --> 00:34:58,720
extraterrestrial intelligence

1029
00:35:02,390 --> 00:35:00,960
in the cosmos are assuming the same

1030
00:35:03,670 --> 00:35:02,400
thing they're looking for

1031
00:35:05,990 --> 00:35:03,680
they're looking for evidence of

1032
00:35:08,069 --> 00:35:06,000
information embedded in radio signals

1033
00:35:09,829 --> 00:35:08,079
if they find it they'll they'll infer

1034
00:35:10,870 --> 00:35:09,839
that there is an et out there now they

1035
00:35:13,030 --> 00:35:10,880
haven't found it

1036
00:35:13,990 --> 00:35:13,040
but we have found information in a

1037
00:35:16,310 --> 00:35:14,000
digital form

1038
00:35:17,829 --> 00:35:16,320
stored in every single strand of dna in

1039
00:35:19,589 --> 00:35:17,839
every single cell

1040
00:35:21,030 --> 00:35:19,599
and that information is part of as i

1041
00:35:22,550 --> 00:35:21,040
mentioned this complex information

1042
00:35:23,510 --> 00:35:22,560
storage transmission and processing

1043
00:35:26,870 --> 00:35:23,520
system

1044
00:35:27,750 --> 00:35:26,880
that that uh exceeds our the complexity

1045
00:35:30,870 --> 00:35:27,760
of our own

1046
00:35:33,750 --> 00:35:30,880
uh digi high-tech digital technology so

1047
00:35:34,870 --> 00:35:33,760
um just like the the the the

1048
00:35:37,510 --> 00:35:34,880
archaeologist

1049
00:35:38,550 --> 00:35:37,520
and on you know and in antarctica the

1050
00:35:40,310 --> 00:35:38,560
most logical thing to

1051
00:35:42,550 --> 00:35:40,320
to conclude from the discovery of that

1052
00:35:44,069 --> 00:35:42,560
information is that a mind played a role

1053
00:35:45,589 --> 00:35:44,079
in the origin of that information the

1054
00:35:48,710 --> 00:35:45,599
information present in life

1055
00:35:49,750 --> 00:35:48,720
and and this sophisticated network that

1056
00:35:53,349 --> 00:35:49,760
you describe

1057
00:35:55,589 --> 00:35:53,359
is uh apparent in a single cell

1058
00:35:57,510 --> 00:35:55,599
is a single cell that is sophisticated

1059
00:35:58,790 --> 00:35:57,520
in even the simplest living cells even

1060
00:36:01,670 --> 00:35:58,800
in bacterial cells

1061
00:36:02,470 --> 00:36:01,680
in in what are yeah i mean what is this

1062
00:36:05,109 --> 00:36:02,480
what is this

1063
00:36:06,630 --> 00:36:05,119
if there was a an initial cell how would

1064
00:36:08,550 --> 00:36:06,640
you define that cell

1065
00:36:09,420 --> 00:36:08,560
the the first cell that ever appeared on

1066
00:36:10,550 --> 00:36:09,430
earth

1067
00:36:12,950 --> 00:36:10,560
[Music]

1068
00:36:14,630 --> 00:36:12,960
well we can look at our own cell you

1069
00:36:14,870 --> 00:36:14,640
know the cells that we have now and look

1070
00:36:16,710 --> 00:36:14,880
at

1071
00:36:18,470 --> 00:36:16,720
there are two two basic types of cells

1072
00:36:19,270 --> 00:36:18,480
there's eukaryotes and prokaryotes the

1073
00:36:21,990 --> 00:36:19,280
prokaryotes

1074
00:36:22,390 --> 00:36:22,000
are cells without nuclei and even they

1075
00:36:24,390 --> 00:36:22,400
have

1076
00:36:26,150 --> 00:36:24,400
these extraordinarily complex

1077
00:36:28,630 --> 00:36:26,160
information processing systems inside

1078
00:36:34,069 --> 00:36:32,470
uh and so so if the theory then

1079
00:36:35,510 --> 00:36:34,079
is that there's you're saying there's no

1080
00:36:36,550 --> 00:36:35,520
evolutionary explanation for the

1081
00:36:38,790 --> 00:36:36,560
appearance of this

1082
00:36:40,069 --> 00:36:38,800
cell so you you posit that essentially

1083
00:36:43,270 --> 00:36:40,079
it was god that placed the

1084
00:36:45,910 --> 00:36:43,280
the cell there and so so people

1085
00:36:48,630 --> 00:36:45,920
who are believe christians today are

1086
00:36:52,310 --> 00:36:48,640
believers today would have to believe

1087
00:36:55,510 --> 00:36:52,320
not in this idea that humans are somehow

1088
00:36:59,190 --> 00:36:55,520
special and unique in god's eyes that

1089
00:37:02,310 --> 00:36:59,200
really everything living

1090
00:37:05,510 --> 00:37:02,320
on earth plants animals bugs

1091
00:37:06,870 --> 00:37:05,520
humans all evolved from the single cell

1092
00:37:09,270 --> 00:37:06,880
that god planted

1093
00:37:10,950 --> 00:37:09,280
on earth well i'm not necessarily saying

1094
00:37:12,710 --> 00:37:10,960
that there was then a seamless process

1095
00:37:13,910 --> 00:37:12,720
of evolution from that point forward but

1096
00:37:16,630 --> 00:37:13,920
i am saying that

1097
00:37:17,109 --> 00:37:16,640
you can't get to the first living cell

1098
00:37:18,870 --> 00:37:17,119
via

1099
00:37:20,790 --> 00:37:18,880
an evolutionary pathway that's

1100
00:37:22,069 --> 00:37:20,800
undirected and unguided what you see is

1101
00:37:25,190 --> 00:37:22,079
evidence of design

1102
00:37:26,630 --> 00:37:25,200
at the very beginning i think you see

1103
00:37:28,870 --> 00:37:26,640
evidence of design

1104
00:37:30,390 --> 00:37:28,880
uh down the timeline there are

1105
00:37:31,190 --> 00:37:30,400
subsequent events in the history of life

1106
00:37:34,310 --> 00:37:31,200
that also

1107
00:37:36,550 --> 00:37:34,320
manifest massive bursts of new

1108
00:37:37,510 --> 00:37:36,560
information i wrote a second book called

1109
00:37:40,710 --> 00:37:37,520
the

1110
00:37:44,390 --> 00:37:40,720
darwin's doubt

1111
00:37:45,990 --> 00:37:44,400
so um uh i i don't necessarily concede

1112
00:37:47,430 --> 00:37:46,000
the universal tree of life picture of

1113
00:37:47,910 --> 00:37:47,440
the history of life but the point is

1114
00:37:50,230 --> 00:37:47,920
that

1115
00:37:51,990 --> 00:37:50,240
even committed evolutionary biologists

1116
00:37:54,470 --> 00:37:52,000
today acknowledge that we do not have a

1117
00:37:55,750 --> 00:37:54,480
chemical evolutionary origin

1118
00:37:57,670 --> 00:37:55,760
explanation for the origin of the first

1119
00:37:58,630 --> 00:37:57,680
life richard dawkins who's perhaps the

1120
00:38:00,470 --> 00:37:58,640
foremost

1121
00:38:03,589 --> 00:38:00,480
spokesman for scientific atheism in the

1122
00:38:05,990 --> 00:38:03,599
world in a 2008 interview he did with

1123
00:38:08,150 --> 00:38:06,000
ben stein in a film called expelled

1124
00:38:09,430 --> 00:38:08,160
openly acknowledged no no one knows from

1125
00:38:10,150 --> 00:38:09,440
an evolutionary point of view how the

1126
00:38:12,550 --> 00:38:10,160
first life

1127
00:38:15,589 --> 00:38:12,560
arose from simple prebiotic simple

1128
00:38:17,829 --> 00:38:15,599
chemicals in a prebiotic environment

1129
00:38:19,270 --> 00:38:17,839
yeah it's not something so when i argue

1130
00:38:20,630 --> 00:38:19,280
for intelligent design is the best

1131
00:38:21,190 --> 00:38:20,640
explanation for the origin of the

1132
00:38:23,670 --> 00:38:21,200
information

1133
00:38:24,790 --> 00:38:23,680
necessary to produce the first life i

1134
00:38:26,870 --> 00:38:24,800
actually stand in no

1135
00:38:29,030 --> 00:38:26,880
fear of contradiction there isn't a

1136
00:38:31,109 --> 00:38:29,040
there isn't an adequate explanation

1137
00:38:32,310 --> 00:38:31,119
that is strictly materialistic on offer

1138
00:38:33,750 --> 00:38:32,320
so we've never

1139
00:38:35,829 --> 00:38:33,760
this is fascinating to me because not

1140
00:38:38,310 --> 00:38:35,839
something i've ever focused on the

1141
00:38:39,109 --> 00:38:38,320
the existence or creation of the first

1142
00:38:41,510 --> 00:38:39,119
cell

1143
00:38:43,109 --> 00:38:41,520
on earth but uh well it you know it's

1144
00:38:44,870 --> 00:38:43,119
super understandable because

1145
00:38:47,109 --> 00:38:44,880
most people don't know that darwin never

1146
00:38:49,430 --> 00:38:47,119
really addressed that topic

1147
00:38:50,390 --> 00:38:49,440
in the origin of species he presupposes

1148
00:38:53,910 --> 00:38:50,400
one or ver

1149
00:38:56,870 --> 00:38:53,920
or or a few very simple forms from which

1150
00:38:57,270 --> 00:38:56,880
biological evolution would then unfold

1151
00:39:00,550 --> 00:38:57,280
but

1152
00:39:02,550 --> 00:39:00,560
uh only in a in a single letter uh

1153
00:39:04,069 --> 00:39:02,560
did he speculate about the origin of

1154
00:39:04,790 --> 00:39:04,079
first life to a friend named joseph

1155
00:39:06,150 --> 00:39:04,800
hooker and he

1156
00:39:08,150 --> 00:39:06,160
that's where we got the idea of the

1157
00:39:10,310 --> 00:39:08,160
prebiotic soup he talked about life

1158
00:39:11,349 --> 00:39:10,320
possibly arising in a in a warm little

1159
00:39:13,990 --> 00:39:11,359
pond of

1160
00:39:14,710 --> 00:39:14,000
all the diff right you're saying we have

1161
00:39:19,270 --> 00:39:14,720
we've never

1162
00:39:22,470 --> 00:39:19,280
in a lab in a petri dish created a cell

1163
00:39:25,670 --> 00:39:22,480
no nowhere near nowhere near we've

1164
00:39:28,550 --> 00:39:25,680
we've caused cells to to expand or or or

1165
00:39:31,030 --> 00:39:28,560
well we've we've done experiments where

1166
00:39:32,150 --> 00:39:31,040
we put dna from one cell into another

1167
00:39:35,990 --> 00:39:32,160
things like that

1168
00:39:38,230 --> 00:39:36,000
uh but there's no uh there's never been

1169
00:39:39,109 --> 00:39:38,240
a synthetic form of life developed in a

1170
00:39:40,630 --> 00:39:39,119
laboratory

1171
00:39:42,550 --> 00:39:40,640
but what about just you know what you

1172
00:39:45,349 --> 00:39:42,560
know standing water

1173
00:39:46,150 --> 00:39:45,359
which creates mold and bacteria and all

1174
00:39:47,910 --> 00:39:46,160
kinds of

1175
00:39:49,510 --> 00:39:47,920
nonsense i mean isn't that well that's

1176
00:39:50,310 --> 00:39:49,520
that's the old idea of spontaneous

1177
00:39:52,630 --> 00:39:50,320
generation

1178
00:39:54,150 --> 00:39:52,640
from the 19th century louis pasteur and

1179
00:39:56,150 --> 00:39:54,160
others refuted that

1180
00:39:57,750 --> 00:39:56,160
when you get when you have the

1181
00:39:59,589 --> 00:39:57,760
appearance of life coming out of nowhere

1182
00:40:01,349 --> 00:39:59,599
it's usually from spores or bacteria

1183
00:40:04,470 --> 00:40:01,359
that were there pre-existent and we just

1184
00:40:05,270 --> 00:40:04,480
we didn't see them so no life has not

1185
00:40:08,069 --> 00:40:05,280
been

1186
00:40:09,430 --> 00:40:08,079
uh generated or created in a laboratory

1187
00:40:11,510 --> 00:40:09,440
by human beings but if it were

1188
00:40:12,470 --> 00:40:11,520
notice what it would what it would show

1189
00:40:15,109 --> 00:40:12,480
if it took

1190
00:40:16,870 --> 00:40:15,119
human ingenuity to structure a bunch of

1191
00:40:19,829 --> 00:40:16,880
chemicals to create

1192
00:40:21,750 --> 00:40:19,839
life then what would you be stimulating

1193
00:40:23,349 --> 00:40:21,760
you wouldn't be simulating an undirected

1194
00:40:25,589 --> 00:40:23,359
unguided chemical process

1195
00:40:26,870 --> 00:40:25,599
you'd be simulating the the need for

1196
00:40:28,309 --> 00:40:26,880
intelligent design

1197
00:40:29,990 --> 00:40:28,319
this is one of the arguments i make in

1198
00:40:32,710 --> 00:40:30,000
the book there are what are called

1199
00:40:34,390 --> 00:40:32,720
ribozyme engineering experiments or

1200
00:40:36,230 --> 00:40:34,400
prebiotic simulation experiments where

1201
00:40:38,069 --> 00:40:36,240
the chemist actively

1202
00:40:40,230 --> 00:40:38,079
is manipulating a series of chemical

1203
00:40:42,390 --> 00:40:40,240
reactions to move chemistry in a

1204
00:40:43,430 --> 00:40:42,400
more complex more life-friendly

1205
00:40:45,109 --> 00:40:43,440
direction more

1206
00:40:46,870 --> 00:40:45,119
life-relevant direction trying to

1207
00:40:48,790 --> 00:40:46,880
produce some of the precursors of

1208
00:40:51,510 --> 00:40:48,800
biological molecules

1209
00:40:53,430 --> 00:40:51,520
but that's those experiments to the

1210
00:40:55,030 --> 00:40:53,440
extent they've been successful

1211
00:40:57,190 --> 00:40:55,040
have been successful because of the

1212
00:40:59,750 --> 00:40:57,200
active manipulation and guidance

1213
00:41:01,270 --> 00:40:59,760
of an intelligent agent so the

1214
00:41:02,150 --> 00:41:01,280
simulation experiments are meant by the

1215
00:41:04,550 --> 00:41:02,160
logic of the

1216
00:41:05,750 --> 00:41:04,560
of origin of life research to simulate

1217
00:41:07,510 --> 00:41:05,760
what might have been happening on the

1218
00:41:08,790 --> 00:41:07,520
early earth but if you can't get the

1219
00:41:09,990 --> 00:41:08,800
life to move and

1220
00:41:12,150 --> 00:41:10,000
if you can't get the chemistry to move

1221
00:41:15,109 --> 00:41:12,160
in a life-friendly direction without

1222
00:41:16,790 --> 00:41:15,119
the use of intelligence you're not

1223
00:41:18,309 --> 00:41:16,800
simulating an undirected unguided

1224
00:41:19,349 --> 00:41:18,319
process you're simulating the need for

1225
00:41:21,589 --> 00:41:19,359
intelligent design

1226
00:41:23,190 --> 00:41:21,599
yeah but i mean wouldn't that i mean all

1227
00:41:25,030 --> 00:41:23,200
science is directed by

1228
00:41:27,430 --> 00:41:25,040
intelligent humans so you would

1229
00:41:29,270 --> 00:41:27,440
discredit any scientific discovery with

1230
00:41:30,230 --> 00:41:29,280
that argument no you know much science

1231
00:41:32,710 --> 00:41:30,240
is involved is

1232
00:41:34,309 --> 00:41:32,720
it involves intelligent humans observing

1233
00:41:35,990 --> 00:41:34,319
processes in nature that take place

1234
00:41:37,190 --> 00:41:36,000
without our assistance guidance or

1235
00:41:39,109 --> 00:41:37,200
direction

1236
00:41:41,349 --> 00:41:39,119
when we have to assist guide and direct

1237
00:41:43,829 --> 00:41:41,359
to get the outcome we want

1238
00:41:45,430 --> 00:41:43,839
and to we can't say that that simulate

1239
00:41:46,630 --> 00:41:45,440
simulating what nature would do on its

1240
00:41:49,750 --> 00:41:46,640
own

1241
00:41:52,150 --> 00:41:49,760
okay okay so now let's move to

1242
00:41:53,990 --> 00:41:52,160
you what you're saying is no jim i'm not

1243
00:41:55,670 --> 00:41:54,000
saying that the single cell that was

1244
00:41:57,430 --> 00:41:55,680
created by god

1245
00:41:59,109 --> 00:41:57,440
resulted in all the evolution that we

1246
00:42:01,990 --> 00:41:59,119
see today including the creation of

1247
00:42:05,030 --> 00:42:02,000
humans you believe that then god

1248
00:42:06,470 --> 00:42:05,040
interceded at other points so how many

1249
00:42:08,390 --> 00:42:06,480
other times did he

1250
00:42:10,550 --> 00:42:08,400
intercede or what was the ma the the

1251
00:42:11,990 --> 00:42:10,560
main well i i think it's first important

1252
00:42:14,950 --> 00:42:12,000
to understand the argument

1253
00:42:16,870 --> 00:42:14,960
the way i've unfolded the argument uh in

1254
00:42:17,349 --> 00:42:16,880
my book signature in the cell i made the

1255
00:42:19,430 --> 00:42:17,359
case

1256
00:42:21,589 --> 00:42:19,440
for the intelligent intelligent design

1257
00:42:23,510 --> 00:42:21,599
is the best explanation for the origin

1258
00:42:24,870 --> 00:42:23,520
of the information needed to build the

1259
00:42:27,430 --> 00:42:24,880
first light

1260
00:42:28,230 --> 00:42:27,440
and i don't didn't conclude from that

1261
00:42:31,190 --> 00:42:28,240
alone that the

1262
00:42:31,589 --> 00:42:31,200
the designing agent was necessarily god

1263
00:42:35,270 --> 00:42:31,599
to

1264
00:42:39,349 --> 00:42:35,280
discussion

1265
00:42:42,309 --> 00:42:39,359
i expanded the in this new book i expand

1266
00:42:43,910 --> 00:42:42,319
the the the data under examination and

1267
00:42:44,470 --> 00:42:43,920
look at what we know from physics and

1268
00:42:47,030 --> 00:42:44,480
bio

1269
00:42:48,790 --> 00:42:47,040
and cosmology about the universe having

1270
00:42:50,150 --> 00:42:48,800
been finely tuned from the beginning the

1271
00:42:52,150 --> 00:42:50,160
fine-tuning i argue

1272
00:42:55,030 --> 00:42:52,160
is evidence of a fine tuner as many

1273
00:42:56,950 --> 00:42:55,040
physicists themselves have pointed out

1274
00:42:58,390 --> 00:42:56,960
and that that evidence of design is

1275
00:42:59,109 --> 00:42:58,400
present from the very beginning of the

1276
00:43:01,190 --> 00:42:59,119
universe

1277
00:43:02,630 --> 00:43:01,200
so if you only had evidence of design

1278
00:43:04,069 --> 00:43:02,640
long after the beginning you might

1279
00:43:04,790 --> 00:43:04,079
consider the possibility that the

1280
00:43:06,870 --> 00:43:04,800
designing

1281
00:43:08,069 --> 00:43:06,880
agent had been an agent within the

1282
00:43:10,790 --> 00:43:08,079
cosmos

1283
00:43:12,630 --> 00:43:10,800
and no less a person in science than

1284
00:43:13,990 --> 00:43:12,640
francis crick proposed that idea it's

1285
00:43:15,589 --> 00:43:14,000
called panspermia

1286
00:43:17,030 --> 00:43:15,599
dawkins actually floated the idea in

1287
00:43:20,150 --> 00:43:17,040
this interview that i

1288
00:43:22,309 --> 00:43:20,160
mentioned with ben stein

1289
00:43:23,990 --> 00:43:22,319
and i argue that that ends up not being

1290
00:43:25,109 --> 00:43:24,000
a very good explanation of the origin of

1291
00:43:27,030 --> 00:43:25,119
life because

1292
00:43:28,150 --> 00:43:27,040
if life was seeded here by an

1293
00:43:29,589 --> 00:43:28,160
intelligent agent

1294
00:43:31,589 --> 00:43:29,599
that evolved someplace else in the

1295
00:43:33,190 --> 00:43:31,599
cosmos you still got to get that

1296
00:43:34,150 --> 00:43:33,200
evolutionary process going which will

1297
00:43:36,470 --> 00:43:34,160
require

1298
00:43:37,910 --> 00:43:36,480
a first cell and information and if you

1299
00:43:38,710 --> 00:43:37,920
can't solve the information problem on

1300
00:43:40,150 --> 00:43:38,720
planet earth

1301
00:43:42,390 --> 00:43:40,160
it doesn't solve it just to kick it out

1302
00:43:43,990 --> 00:43:42,400
into outer space but secondly and even

1303
00:43:45,910 --> 00:43:44,000
more fundamentally

1304
00:43:48,069 --> 00:43:45,920
no being within the cosmos could explain

1305
00:43:48,790 --> 00:43:48,079
the origin of the cosmos itself a finite

1306
00:43:50,950 --> 00:43:48,800
time ago

1307
00:43:52,710 --> 00:43:50,960
or the fine-tuning of the universe that

1308
00:43:55,430 --> 00:43:52,720
makes its very life possible

1309
00:43:57,190 --> 00:43:55,440
so the alien designer idea i argue is

1310
00:43:59,030 --> 00:43:57,200
not as good an explanation of the

1311
00:43:59,589 --> 00:43:59,040
overall ensemble of evidence that we

1312
00:44:02,150 --> 00:43:59,599
have

1313
00:44:03,670 --> 00:44:02,160
from biology physics and cosmology as

1314
00:44:05,270 --> 00:44:03,680
the god hypothesis so i

1315
00:44:07,030 --> 00:44:05,280
i don't jump immediately to the god

1316
00:44:10,550 --> 00:44:07,040
hypothesis from the design

1317
00:44:12,309 --> 00:44:10,560
evident in life to to to infer

1318
00:44:14,870 --> 00:44:12,319
that the kind of intelligence that we

1319
00:44:16,230 --> 00:44:14,880
have involves a transcendent mind

1320
00:44:18,390 --> 00:44:16,240
you have to look at the physics and the

1321
00:44:21,750 --> 00:44:18,400
cosmology as well

1322
00:44:24,950 --> 00:44:21,760
okay um all right and

1323
00:44:28,950 --> 00:44:24,960
what are the elements that you believe

1324
00:44:31,030 --> 00:44:28,960
indicate that god has interceded

1325
00:44:32,309 --> 00:44:31,040
more than just by planting a single cell

1326
00:44:35,190 --> 00:44:32,319
on earth

1327
00:44:37,990 --> 00:44:35,200
well i think the evidence of what is

1328
00:44:39,990 --> 00:44:38,000
called fossil discontinuity

1329
00:44:42,069 --> 00:44:40,000
uh throughout the history of life i look

1330
00:44:46,150 --> 00:44:42,079
at another similar

1331
00:44:51,030 --> 00:44:48,390
striking example of this in my second

1332
00:44:53,270 --> 00:44:51,040
book darwin's doubt

1333
00:44:56,390 --> 00:44:53,280
there is an event in the history of life

1334
00:44:58,550 --> 00:44:56,400
known as the cambrian explosion in which

1335
00:44:59,430 --> 00:44:58,560
most of the major animal what are called

1336
00:45:01,589 --> 00:44:59,440
body plans

1337
00:45:02,470 --> 00:45:01,599
emerge abruptly in the fossil record

1338
00:45:07,510 --> 00:45:02,480
with no

1339
00:45:11,190 --> 00:45:09,270
transition a series of prior

1340
00:45:13,589 --> 00:45:11,200
transitional intermediates

1341
00:45:14,710 --> 00:45:13,599
as you would expect on a darwinian view

1342
00:45:16,790 --> 00:45:14,720
and

1343
00:45:18,790 --> 00:45:16,800
that presents two mysteries one the

1344
00:45:19,910 --> 00:45:18,800
first mystery is where all the missing

1345
00:45:23,430 --> 00:45:19,920
intermediates if

1346
00:45:25,589 --> 00:45:23,440
a gradualistic darwinian process had had

1347
00:45:28,069 --> 00:45:25,599
produced all these new forms of animal

1348
00:45:30,550 --> 00:45:28,079
life but secondly it also

1349
00:45:32,230 --> 00:45:30,560
uh creates a mystery of how these animal

1350
00:45:34,630 --> 00:45:32,240
forms would have been built

1351
00:45:36,710 --> 00:45:34,640
because post watson and crick and the

1352
00:45:38,710 --> 00:45:36,720
molecular biological revolution we know

1353
00:45:40,390 --> 00:45:38,720
that building new forms of animal life

1354
00:45:42,150 --> 00:45:40,400
requires new information

1355
00:45:44,390 --> 00:45:42,160
if you want to give your computer a new

1356
00:45:47,030 --> 00:45:44,400
function you've got to provide new code

1357
00:45:49,670 --> 00:45:47,040
you want to build a new uh form of

1358
00:45:52,309 --> 00:45:49,680
animal life with new organs and tissues

1359
00:45:53,190 --> 00:45:52,319
and an overall body plan new overall

1360
00:45:55,030 --> 00:45:53,200
body plan

1361
00:45:56,710 --> 00:45:55,040
you need both genetic information and

1362
00:45:58,230 --> 00:45:56,720
other forms of biological information to

1363
00:45:59,589 --> 00:45:58,240
accomplish that the evolutionary process

1364
00:46:01,670 --> 00:45:59,599
would need to do that

1365
00:46:03,030 --> 00:46:01,680
when you examine the evolutionary models

1366
00:46:05,589 --> 00:46:03,040
on offer

1367
00:46:07,190 --> 00:46:05,599
they either presuppose pre-existing

1368
00:46:08,870 --> 00:46:07,200
unexplained information or they don't

1369
00:46:09,910 --> 00:46:08,880
address that fundamental informational

1370
00:46:12,550 --> 00:46:09,920
problem

1371
00:46:14,390 --> 00:46:12,560
and um and so i think that when you have

1372
00:46:16,470 --> 00:46:14,400
these big events in the history of life

1373
00:46:17,910 --> 00:46:16,480
where you see massive innovation in

1374
00:46:20,870 --> 00:46:17,920
biological form

1375
00:46:22,390 --> 00:46:20,880
implying the need for new bursts of

1376
00:46:25,349 --> 00:46:22,400
biological information

1377
00:46:26,710 --> 00:46:25,359
i think those are likely uh uh events

1378
00:46:29,990 --> 00:46:26,720
that also required

1379
00:46:31,510 --> 00:46:30,000
active the action of an active designing

1380
00:46:33,270 --> 00:46:31,520
intelligence

1381
00:46:35,109 --> 00:46:33,280
so what you're really referring to

1382
00:46:37,109 --> 00:46:35,119
kraken wrong is is

1383
00:46:38,230 --> 00:46:37,119
what people commonly refer to as the

1384
00:46:44,710 --> 00:46:38,240
missing link

1385
00:46:45,270 --> 00:46:44,720
which some of those have subsequently

1386
00:46:46,710 --> 00:46:45,280
links

1387
00:46:48,470 --> 00:46:46,720
have been found right so there's been

1388
00:46:49,510 --> 00:46:48,480
unexplained how we got from this to this

1389
00:46:52,550 --> 00:46:49,520
and then

1390
00:46:53,990 --> 00:46:52,560
later more discoveries reveal those

1391
00:46:56,150 --> 00:46:54,000
links

1392
00:46:57,670 --> 00:46:56,160
the overall pattern in the fossil record

1393
00:47:00,710 --> 00:46:57,680
is one of discontinuity

1394
00:47:03,030 --> 00:47:00,720
there are there are examples

1395
00:47:05,750 --> 00:47:03,040
of continuous change but at what are

1396
00:47:07,990 --> 00:47:05,760
called lower taxonomic levels at species

1397
00:47:09,030 --> 00:47:08,000
genus maybe up the level of family when

1398
00:47:11,190 --> 00:47:09,040
you're looking at the

1399
00:47:13,270 --> 00:47:11,200
major major innovation in the history of

1400
00:47:14,790 --> 00:47:13,280
life we're fundamentally new forms

1401
00:47:16,470 --> 00:47:14,800
of life fundamental fundamentally new

1402
00:47:18,390 --> 00:47:16,480
body plans where body plan

1403
00:47:19,990 --> 00:47:18,400
is a unique a unique way of arranging

1404
00:47:21,750 --> 00:47:20,000
body parts and tissues

1405
00:47:23,430 --> 00:47:21,760
when you see new body plans come into

1406
00:47:25,510 --> 00:47:23,440
existence we're talking about

1407
00:47:26,630 --> 00:47:25,520
in the higher taxonomic categories of

1408
00:47:30,710 --> 00:47:26,640
classes

1409
00:47:34,230 --> 00:47:30,720
the orders

1410
00:47:38,390 --> 00:47:34,240
um these events are almost universally

1411
00:47:41,910 --> 00:47:38,400
highly discontinuous the abrupt uh

1412
00:47:42,710 --> 00:47:41,920
change in form uh abrupt new innovation

1413
00:47:45,430 --> 00:47:42,720
in the history of life

1414
00:47:46,150 --> 00:47:45,440
so so just tick through us real quickly

1415
00:47:48,230 --> 00:47:46,160
if you could just

1416
00:47:49,510 --> 00:47:48,240
you know the the major ones that you're

1417
00:47:50,870 --> 00:47:49,520
talking about that

1418
00:47:52,230 --> 00:47:50,880
don't really have an evolutionary

1419
00:47:53,349 --> 00:47:52,240
explanation yeah things like the the

1420
00:47:56,790 --> 00:47:53,359
cambrian explosion

1421
00:48:00,549 --> 00:47:56,800
the uh the uh

1422
00:48:02,230 --> 00:48:00,559
explosion of the mammalian radiation the

1423
00:48:03,910 --> 00:48:02,240
appearance of flowering plants the

1424
00:48:05,510 --> 00:48:03,920
cretaceous um

1425
00:48:07,349 --> 00:48:05,520
i have an article i wrote with the

1426
00:48:09,270 --> 00:48:07,359
german paleontologist gunter beckley

1427
00:48:11,190 --> 00:48:09,280
about 17 major

1428
00:48:13,510 --> 00:48:11,200
uh innovations in the history of life

1429
00:48:14,309 --> 00:48:13,520
that are profoundly discontinuous and

1430
00:48:17,589 --> 00:48:14,319
lack

1431
00:48:20,710 --> 00:48:17,599
uh ancestral fossils so

1432
00:48:21,270 --> 00:48:20,720
these would be examples of under your

1433
00:48:25,030 --> 00:48:21,280
theory

1434
00:48:28,470 --> 00:48:25,040
that god interceded and decided

1435
00:48:29,670 --> 00:48:28,480
that on this little tiny rock in this

1436
00:48:33,109 --> 00:48:29,680
humongous

1437
00:48:36,230 --> 00:48:33,119
universe i'm going to plant this

1438
00:48:38,870 --> 00:48:36,240
single cell and then later

1439
00:48:40,150 --> 00:48:38,880
a few hundred million years later what

1440
00:48:42,790 --> 00:48:40,160
have you he decides

1441
00:48:43,349 --> 00:48:42,800
now i'm going to plant put a plant there

1442
00:48:45,190 --> 00:48:43,359
and then

1443
00:48:46,630 --> 00:48:45,200
100 million years after that i'm going

1444
00:48:49,670 --> 00:48:46,640
to put a little

1445
00:48:52,230 --> 00:48:49,680
animal here or a little bugger whatever

1446
00:48:54,710 --> 00:48:52,240
is so so this is an intelligent

1447
00:48:55,430 --> 00:48:54,720
i i see personal god i see evidence of

1448
00:48:58,790 --> 00:48:55,440
design

1449
00:49:00,790 --> 00:48:58,800
in those events uh because of the large

1450
00:49:02,790 --> 00:49:00,800
discontinuous increases in the

1451
00:49:03,910 --> 00:49:02,800
information content of the biosphere at

1452
00:49:05,670 --> 00:49:03,920
those points

1453
00:49:06,710 --> 00:49:05,680
so that's a god but you know under that

1454
00:49:08,230 --> 00:49:06,720
let me come back at you a little bit

1455
00:49:11,510 --> 00:49:08,240
because just that the tone of

1456
00:49:13,109 --> 00:49:11,520
the your question is sort of designed to

1457
00:49:15,750 --> 00:49:13,119
make this sound implausible

1458
00:49:17,030 --> 00:49:15,760
but let's compare it to something how

1459
00:49:20,230 --> 00:49:17,040
plausible is it that

1460
00:49:23,109 --> 00:49:20,240
undirected unguided processes produced

1461
00:49:24,470 --> 00:49:23,119
all these beautiful organ structures and

1462
00:49:26,870 --> 00:49:24,480
body plans

1463
00:49:28,470 --> 00:49:26,880
and informational codes that are

1464
00:49:30,390 --> 00:49:28,480
necessary to build these living

1465
00:49:31,670 --> 00:49:30,400
organisms without the guidance of an

1466
00:49:33,430 --> 00:49:31,680
intelligent agent

1467
00:49:36,230 --> 00:49:33,440
we've gotten used to thinking and it's

1468
00:49:38,630 --> 00:49:36,240
sort of a default materialism where

1469
00:49:39,670 --> 00:49:38,640
anything that involves mind or agency is

1470
00:49:42,710 --> 00:49:39,680
somehow

1471
00:49:45,510 --> 00:49:42,720
like something spooky or weird

1472
00:49:46,630 --> 00:49:45,520
but maybe it's more weird to think of

1473
00:49:49,750 --> 00:49:46,640
nature

1474
00:49:51,750 --> 00:49:49,760
uh uh brute matter having these prop the

1475
00:49:55,750 --> 00:49:51,760
properties of ingenuity

1476
00:49:58,069 --> 00:49:55,760
on its own and so it's uh

1477
00:50:00,230 --> 00:49:58,079
i i i just pushed back at the the sort

1478
00:50:03,430 --> 00:50:00,240
of the um

1479
00:50:05,109 --> 00:50:03,440
the kind of the the incredulity that we

1480
00:50:07,270 --> 00:50:05,119
reflexively feel

1481
00:50:08,870 --> 00:50:07,280
about talking about the action of an

1482
00:50:10,309 --> 00:50:08,880
agent in the history of life

1483
00:50:12,069 --> 00:50:10,319
okay that's you know we're not used to

1484
00:50:13,670 --> 00:50:12,079
thinking that way we've inherited

1485
00:50:15,510 --> 00:50:13,680
a way of thinking from the late 19th

1486
00:50:17,990 --> 00:50:15,520
century that says that

1487
00:50:19,750 --> 00:50:18,000
you know that nature has these

1488
00:50:21,990 --> 00:50:19,760
properties we should we should not be

1489
00:50:23,190 --> 00:50:22,000
talking about creative intelligence as

1490
00:50:25,349 --> 00:50:23,200
an explanation

1491
00:50:26,790 --> 00:50:25,359
right but we're looking at features in

1492
00:50:29,270 --> 00:50:26,800
living systems which in

1493
00:50:31,190 --> 00:50:29,280
any other realm of experience would

1494
00:50:32,710 --> 00:50:31,200
immediately trigger an awareness of the

1495
00:50:35,030 --> 00:50:32,720
activity of a designing mind

1496
00:50:37,750 --> 00:50:35,040
i had a microsoft engineer who was

1497
00:50:39,349 --> 00:50:37,760
working with us

1498
00:50:40,870 --> 00:50:39,359
writing he wrote ten thousand lines of

1499
00:50:42,390 --> 00:50:40,880
code to simulate

1500
00:50:44,630 --> 00:50:42,400
what's called the gene expression system

1501
00:50:46,790 --> 00:50:44,640
how the information in dna

1502
00:50:48,549 --> 00:50:46,800
directs the construction of proteins he

1503
00:50:50,470 --> 00:50:48,559
came into my office one day and threw a

1504
00:50:51,190 --> 00:50:50,480
book down on my table called design

1505
00:50:54,230 --> 00:50:51,200
patterns

1506
00:50:55,109 --> 00:50:54,240
the standard design manual for software

1507
00:50:57,349 --> 00:50:55,119
engineers

1508
00:50:59,349 --> 00:50:57,359
and a design pattern he explained to me

1509
00:51:02,230 --> 00:50:59,359
is an established way

1510
00:51:03,349 --> 00:51:02,240
of storing or processing digital

1511
00:51:05,990 --> 00:51:03,359
information

1512
00:51:07,750 --> 00:51:06,000
and he said as i'm in order to to to

1513
00:51:09,510 --> 00:51:07,760
write the code to simulate

1514
00:51:11,510 --> 00:51:09,520
how the information in dna is being

1515
00:51:13,670 --> 00:51:11,520
expressed to produce proteins

1516
00:51:15,510 --> 00:51:13,680
i'm encountering all kinds of design

1517
00:51:17,030 --> 00:51:15,520
patterns that i recognize from high-tech

1518
00:51:19,270 --> 00:51:17,040
digital computing

1519
00:51:20,710 --> 00:51:19,280
in the cell you have automated error

1520
00:51:22,549 --> 00:51:20,720
correction well we have a

1521
00:51:24,230 --> 00:51:22,559
we have a we have a spell check in our

1522
00:51:26,230 --> 00:51:24,240
in our computers in our software pro

1523
00:51:28,150 --> 00:51:26,240
you know in our word processing programs

1524
00:51:29,990 --> 00:51:28,160
um we've got

1525
00:51:31,589 --> 00:51:30,000
information compression technologies

1526
00:51:34,790 --> 00:51:31,599
we've got uh

1527
00:51:37,030 --> 00:51:34,800
cryptographic decoding technologies so

1528
00:51:38,470 --> 00:51:37,040
this is very sophisticated information

1529
00:51:40,150 --> 00:51:38,480
technology that we're finding in even

1530
00:51:43,430 --> 00:51:40,160
the simplest living cells

1531
00:51:44,549 --> 00:51:43,440
and so um it might be time to not only

1532
00:51:46,710 --> 00:51:44,559
change our theories but our

1533
00:51:48,950 --> 00:51:46,720
sensibilities that suggest that

1534
00:51:49,990 --> 00:51:48,960
if if we're invoking something other

1535
00:51:51,589 --> 00:51:50,000
than a purely

1536
00:51:53,510 --> 00:51:51,599
materialistic explanation that we've

1537
00:51:55,430 --> 00:51:53,520
somehow uh jumped off the edge of the

1538
00:51:59,190 --> 00:51:55,440
rational universe

1539
00:52:01,109 --> 00:51:59,200
yeah well look i i find evolution

1540
00:52:02,710 --> 00:52:01,119
difficult to believe also so don't don't

1541
00:52:04,069 --> 00:52:02,720
get me wrong i mean you know the idea

1542
00:52:06,790 --> 00:52:04,079
that everything created from this

1543
00:52:07,270 --> 00:52:06,800
single cell it is it is hard to believe

1544
00:52:09,030 --> 00:52:07,280
it does

1545
00:52:10,549 --> 00:52:09,040
seem to be at this point the best

1546
00:52:13,109 --> 00:52:10,559
scientific explanation

1547
00:52:14,069 --> 00:52:13,119
but you know there's gaps in it and

1548
00:52:17,510 --> 00:52:14,079
holes in it and it

1549
00:52:19,829 --> 00:52:17,520
and it is hard to believe but it is

1550
00:52:22,549 --> 00:52:19,839
it isn't let me spend my money but it is

1551
00:52:24,230 --> 00:52:22,559
it is rational though

1552
00:52:25,510 --> 00:52:24,240
you know it it it does seem to make

1553
00:52:26,710 --> 00:52:25,520
rational sense that even though it's

1554
00:52:28,710 --> 00:52:26,720
kind of hard to believe but that you

1555
00:52:30,150 --> 00:52:28,720
know that all these things could evolve

1556
00:52:31,270 --> 00:52:30,160
uh over that time period and so on

1557
00:52:31,990 --> 00:52:31,280
although we are talking about a long

1558
00:52:35,430 --> 00:52:32,000
period of time

1559
00:52:36,790 --> 00:52:35,440
it does make logical sense i believe

1560
00:52:39,030 --> 00:52:36,800
anyway you could disagree with that but

1561
00:52:40,069 --> 00:52:39,040
that's fine but so i'm only saying that

1562
00:52:41,910 --> 00:52:40,079
okay if you're going to posit a

1563
00:52:43,829 --> 00:52:41,920
different theory than this

1564
00:52:45,430 --> 00:52:43,839
then you're also going to have to

1565
00:52:47,670 --> 00:52:45,440
explain also a bit

1566
00:52:48,710 --> 00:52:47,680
how it's rational you know how it's

1567
00:52:51,829 --> 00:52:48,720
rational that

1568
00:52:53,990 --> 00:52:51,839
this intelligence this god would

1569
00:52:55,270 --> 00:52:54,000
choose to do these things at these

1570
00:52:58,230 --> 00:52:55,280
certain times

1571
00:53:00,630 --> 00:52:58,240
and you know what's the thinking behind

1572
00:53:02,230 --> 00:53:00,640
this why did you start just with a cell

1573
00:53:03,910 --> 00:53:02,240
and then later decide i'm going to put a

1574
00:53:05,670 --> 00:53:03,920
plant and later put this and later put

1575
00:53:07,109 --> 00:53:05,680
this and later put this

1576
00:53:09,430 --> 00:53:07,119
is there any logical or rational

1577
00:53:11,190 --> 00:53:09,440
explanation for that well

1578
00:53:12,630 --> 00:53:11,200
it's you could ask the same question of

1579
00:53:14,470 --> 00:53:12,640
the evolutionary process

1580
00:53:15,910 --> 00:53:14,480
right but i'm asking you right now no

1581
00:53:16,549 --> 00:53:15,920
wait no no let me come back at you

1582
00:53:18,470 --> 00:53:16,559
because

1583
00:53:19,910 --> 00:53:18,480
you you've got a an underlying premise

1584
00:53:23,109 --> 00:53:19,920
that i want to challenge

1585
00:53:25,510 --> 00:53:23,119
um we use the notion of

1586
00:53:26,950 --> 00:53:25,520
agency to explain all kinds of things if

1587
00:53:28,790 --> 00:53:26,960
you go to south dakota and look at mount

1588
00:53:31,430 --> 00:53:28,800
rushmore

1589
00:53:33,109 --> 00:53:31,440
and someone asked you how did those

1590
00:53:33,510 --> 00:53:33,119
faces get on the mountain if you say

1591
00:53:35,030 --> 00:53:33,520
well

1592
00:53:36,549 --> 00:53:35,040
must have been wind and erosion i can't

1593
00:53:37,829 --> 00:53:36,559
really think about creative intelligence

1594
00:53:40,069 --> 00:53:37,839
playing a role

1595
00:53:41,109 --> 00:53:40,079
that would not be a rational explanation

1596
00:53:44,230 --> 00:53:41,119
because you have

1597
00:53:47,109 --> 00:53:44,240
experience of the production of of of

1598
00:53:48,790 --> 00:53:47,119
of shapes that conform to the human face

1599
00:53:51,109 --> 00:53:48,800
you know what artists do

1600
00:53:52,710 --> 00:53:51,119
um and you have ways of detecting the

1601
00:53:54,309 --> 00:53:52,720
activity of intelligent agents we

1602
00:53:56,230 --> 00:53:54,319
we detect the activity of intelligence

1603
00:53:57,270 --> 00:53:56,240
agents all the time turns out that there

1604
00:53:58,790 --> 00:53:57,280
are methods

1605
00:54:00,950 --> 00:53:58,800
of design detection that can be

1606
00:54:01,349 --> 00:54:00,960
formalized that's been part of the work

1607
00:54:03,349 --> 00:54:01,359
of the

1608
00:54:04,870 --> 00:54:03,359
the people who work on intelligent

1609
00:54:08,230 --> 00:54:04,880
design um

1610
00:54:10,549 --> 00:54:08,240
and so uh if you go to the british

1611
00:54:12,309 --> 00:54:10,559
museum and you look at the rosetta stone

1612
00:54:14,069 --> 00:54:12,319
and somebody says well how did those how

1613
00:54:15,829 --> 00:54:14,079
did those those characters get on there

1614
00:54:17,109 --> 00:54:15,839
in those hieroglyphs and symbols

1615
00:54:18,470 --> 00:54:17,119
and you said well that was wind and

1616
00:54:20,230 --> 00:54:18,480
erosion as well that would not be a

1617
00:54:22,470 --> 00:54:20,240
rational explanation

1618
00:54:23,990 --> 00:54:22,480
in that it's cut it contradicts what we

1619
00:54:25,750 --> 00:54:24,000
know from our uniform and repeated

1620
00:54:27,589 --> 00:54:25,760
experience about what it takes to

1621
00:54:30,950 --> 00:54:27,599
generate information

1622
00:54:32,390 --> 00:54:30,960
so what we're doing in the in work on

1623
00:54:34,390 --> 00:54:32,400
intelligent design

1624
00:54:35,910 --> 00:54:34,400
is identifying features that we know

1625
00:54:37,910 --> 00:54:35,920
from experience

1626
00:54:40,309 --> 00:54:37,920
are always the product of intelligent

1627
00:54:42,549 --> 00:54:40,319
agents and we're finding those features

1628
00:54:44,150 --> 00:54:42,559
in living systems or in the foundational

1629
00:54:45,430 --> 00:54:44,160
structure of the physical universe and

1630
00:54:47,430 --> 00:54:45,440
the fine-tuning

1631
00:54:49,750 --> 00:54:47,440
so the inference to intelligence is not

1632
00:54:50,789 --> 00:54:49,760
an unrational inference it's a perfectly

1633
00:54:52,309 --> 00:54:50,799
rational inference

1634
00:54:54,230 --> 00:54:52,319
and it's a kind of inference we make all

1635
00:54:55,270 --> 00:54:54,240
the time in our daily lives because we

1636
00:54:57,030 --> 00:54:55,280
see evidence

1637
00:54:58,549 --> 00:54:57,040
of intelligence and the echo of the

1638
00:55:00,630 --> 00:54:58,559
effects that intelligent agents leave

1639
00:55:03,109 --> 00:55:00,640
behind

1640
00:55:06,470 --> 00:55:03,119
yeah but the the rationality and logic

1641
00:55:09,430 --> 00:55:06,480
that i'm talking about is

1642
00:55:10,309 --> 00:55:09,440
why would god intercede in the way that

1643
00:55:11,910 --> 00:55:10,319
ways that he has

1644
00:55:13,430 --> 00:55:11,920
interceded we may not be able to we may

1645
00:55:15,270 --> 00:55:13,440
not be able to answer all of those

1646
00:55:17,190 --> 00:55:15,280
questions but we may still be able to

1647
00:55:18,549 --> 00:55:17,200
detect the activity of such an

1648
00:55:20,630 --> 00:55:18,559
intelligent agent

1649
00:55:22,069 --> 00:55:20,640
we can't uh we can ask the exact same

1650
00:55:23,829 --> 00:55:22,079
question of you know if you accept that

1651
00:55:25,829 --> 00:55:23,839
mutation and selection produced

1652
00:55:27,589 --> 00:55:25,839
everything you could say well why did

1653
00:55:28,309 --> 00:55:27,599
why did this mutation happen at this

1654
00:55:30,309 --> 00:55:28,319
time

1655
00:55:31,750 --> 00:55:30,319
causing you know the stegosaurus to

1656
00:55:33,510 --> 00:55:31,760
arise from some you know

1657
00:55:35,589 --> 00:55:33,520
uh we don't have answers to those types

1658
00:55:37,349 --> 00:55:35,599
of questions uh well but usually it's a

1659
00:55:37,750 --> 00:55:37,359
response to environment to environment

1660
00:55:39,270 --> 00:55:37,760
where

1661
00:55:40,870 --> 00:55:39,280
species yeah but but that those

1662
00:55:41,990 --> 00:55:40,880
environments are never specified we

1663
00:55:45,670 --> 00:55:42,000
don't really know

1664
00:55:45,990 --> 00:55:45,680
um and we also know uh more to the point

1665
00:55:49,109 --> 00:55:46,000
that

1666
00:55:50,630 --> 00:55:49,119
information

1667
00:55:51,990 --> 00:55:50,640
rather than generate it which is one of

1668
00:55:53,030 --> 00:55:52,000
the reasons that leading evolutionary

1669
00:55:55,030 --> 00:55:53,040
biologists share

1670
00:55:57,430 --> 00:55:55,040
a lot of your skepticism about the

1671
00:55:59,430 --> 00:55:57,440
current adequacy of evolutionary theory

1672
00:56:01,510 --> 00:55:59,440
is that the mutation selection mechanism

1673
00:56:04,069 --> 00:56:01,520
seems to do a very good job of

1674
00:56:06,230 --> 00:56:04,079
explaining small-scale variation

1675
00:56:07,829 --> 00:56:06,240
but it doesn't do a good job at all of

1676
00:56:09,190 --> 00:56:07,839
explaining major innovations in the

1677
00:56:11,829 --> 00:56:09,200
history of life where you need a lot of

1678
00:56:14,309 --> 00:56:11,839
new information to build new structures

1679
00:56:15,190 --> 00:56:14,319
where are you on the question of capital

1680
00:56:17,589 --> 00:56:15,200
letters

1681
00:56:20,230 --> 00:56:17,599
the missing link the link between humans

1682
00:56:22,710 --> 00:56:20,240
and apes

1683
00:56:24,789 --> 00:56:22,720
do you believe that we evolved from apes

1684
00:56:28,630 --> 00:56:24,799
or would that be a situation where

1685
00:56:31,109 --> 00:56:28,640
god interceded i i'm i'm skeptical about

1686
00:56:32,630 --> 00:56:31,119
the paleoanthropological accounts of

1687
00:56:34,630 --> 00:56:32,640
human origin i think there's a lot of

1688
00:56:36,950 --> 00:56:34,640
there's a lot of discontinuity there

1689
00:56:39,270 --> 00:56:36,960
not only at the level not only the

1690
00:56:41,030 --> 00:56:39,280
fossil record but in the genomic record

1691
00:56:42,870 --> 00:56:41,040
as well we're discovering that a lot of

1692
00:56:44,710 --> 00:56:42,880
a lot of what are called orphan genes

1693
00:56:45,990 --> 00:56:44,720
are present in the human genome so

1694
00:56:48,630 --> 00:56:46,000
there's more genetic

1695
00:56:49,670 --> 00:56:48,640
genomic discontinuity than previously

1696
00:56:51,430 --> 00:56:49,680
thought so

1697
00:56:53,589 --> 00:56:51,440
um i'm skeptical about that i'm hope you

1698
00:56:54,950 --> 00:56:53,599
know i could be i could be shown

1699
00:56:57,829 --> 00:56:54,960
wrong and maybe there's a convincing

1700
00:56:59,430 --> 00:56:57,839
account but i i'm skeptical about it so

1701
00:57:00,630 --> 00:56:59,440
and i think there there's certainly the

1702
00:57:02,549 --> 00:57:00,640
things about human beings that are

1703
00:57:04,549 --> 00:57:02,559
absolutely unique and discontinuous one

1704
00:57:06,950 --> 00:57:04,559
is our ability to use language

1705
00:57:08,470 --> 00:57:06,960
uh and the origin of language is

1706
00:57:12,069 --> 00:57:08,480
profound mystery because

1707
00:57:13,670 --> 00:57:12,079
after all to get a language system going

1708
00:57:15,030 --> 00:57:13,680
you need a language system you need a

1709
00:57:16,630 --> 00:57:15,040
symbol convention by which to

1710
00:57:17,670 --> 00:57:16,640
communicate to establish a new symbol

1711
00:57:19,030 --> 00:57:17,680
convention so

1712
00:57:20,710 --> 00:57:19,040
it's very difficult to imagine how

1713
00:57:23,910 --> 00:57:20,720
language gets going

1714
00:57:25,349 --> 00:57:23,920
uh in a in a gradual evolutionary way

1715
00:57:27,190 --> 00:57:25,359
and yet that's one of the most

1716
00:57:29,270 --> 00:57:27,200
distinctive features about human beings

1717
00:57:30,470 --> 00:57:29,280
that we we not only take for granted

1718
00:57:31,190 --> 00:57:30,480
we're using right now in order to

1719
00:57:35,109 --> 00:57:31,200
communicate

1720
00:57:38,309 --> 00:57:35,119
um so i i think that humans are unique

1721
00:57:40,150 --> 00:57:38,319
in a in a qualitative sense and uh i'm

1722
00:57:43,510 --> 00:57:40,160
skeptical about their

1723
00:57:44,390 --> 00:57:43,520
uh a purely discontinuous a purely

1724
00:57:46,390 --> 00:57:44,400
continuous

1725
00:57:48,150 --> 00:57:46,400
undirected evolutionary explanation for

1726
00:57:52,309 --> 00:57:48,160
their origin

1727
00:57:54,390 --> 00:57:52,319
so would that be uh evidence or or an

1728
00:57:57,349 --> 00:57:54,400
example of god's most

1729
00:57:58,470 --> 00:57:57,359
recent interceding in what otherwise is

1730
00:58:01,109 --> 00:57:58,480
this evolutionary

1731
00:58:02,309 --> 00:58:01,119
is putting humans on earth yeah it could

1732
00:58:06,150 --> 00:58:02,319
possibly be but

1733
00:58:07,829 --> 00:58:06,160
but i've i've not written about that and

1734
00:58:09,109 --> 00:58:07,839
that's not been my the focus i've been

1735
00:58:10,069 --> 00:58:09,119
looking at the origin of the universe

1736
00:58:12,630 --> 00:58:10,079
the fine-tuning

1737
00:58:13,270 --> 00:58:12,640
the origin of life and i have written a

1738
00:58:15,270 --> 00:58:13,280
book about

1739
00:58:17,190 --> 00:58:15,280
the origin of the animal life so i'm i'm

1740
00:58:18,630 --> 00:58:17,200
not an expert on paleoanthropology but

1741
00:58:21,829 --> 00:58:18,640
i'll tell you that just informally i'm

1742
00:58:24,710 --> 00:58:21,839
skeptical about the standard account

1743
00:58:26,470 --> 00:58:24,720
so um in all of this is kind of we're in

1744
00:58:29,270 --> 00:58:26,480
kind of the number two

1745
00:58:30,390 --> 00:58:29,280
discovery right which pertains to the

1746
00:58:32,950 --> 00:58:30,400
idea that

1747
00:58:34,549 --> 00:58:32,960
the fossil records don't seem to provide

1748
00:58:37,829 --> 00:58:34,559
a smooth

1749
00:58:39,990 --> 00:58:37,839
purely evolutionary explanation for

1750
00:58:41,589 --> 00:58:40,000
all the life that we see so far and

1751
00:58:42,630 --> 00:58:41,599
therefore oh i see i i see how you're

1752
00:58:45,030 --> 00:58:42,640
numbering them no problem

1753
00:58:46,230 --> 00:58:45,040
uh well i i in the in the book i address

1754
00:58:47,190 --> 00:58:46,240
them in the following order first the

1755
00:58:48,950 --> 00:58:47,200
origin of the universe

1756
00:58:50,870 --> 00:58:48,960
the fine-tuning and then the origin of

1757
00:58:51,670 --> 00:58:50,880
the information necessary to the first

1758
00:58:53,750 --> 00:58:51,680
life

1759
00:58:54,789 --> 00:58:53,760
and to major innovations in the history

1760
00:58:56,390 --> 00:58:54,799
of life so yeah

1761
00:58:57,670 --> 00:58:56,400
that that would be what you called

1762
00:58:58,789 --> 00:58:57,680
number two was my number three but no

1763
00:59:00,950 --> 00:58:58,799
big deal yeah oh

1764
00:59:02,470 --> 00:59:00,960
okay yeah yeah okay so i think i'm

1765
00:59:04,789 --> 00:59:02,480
confusing those two but let me make sure

1766
00:59:08,069 --> 00:59:04,799
i understand number two so number two

1767
00:59:08,549 --> 00:59:08,079
is is again the the fact that we don't

1768
00:59:10,870 --> 00:59:08,559
have

1769
00:59:13,349 --> 00:59:10,880
records to explain certain leaps from

1770
00:59:15,030 --> 00:59:13,359
one species to another species

1771
00:59:17,030 --> 00:59:15,040
well it's not so much there's plenty of

1772
00:59:18,150 --> 00:59:17,040
speciation it's the higher taxonomic

1773
00:59:20,549 --> 00:59:18,160
categories that are

1774
00:59:21,190 --> 00:59:20,559
that exhibit this profound discontinuity

1775
00:59:24,069 --> 00:59:21,200
the so

1776
00:59:25,589 --> 00:59:24,079
you know species genus family order

1777
00:59:28,789 --> 00:59:25,599
class and phyla

1778
00:59:29,589 --> 00:59:28,799
the the phylum classes uh um describe

1779
00:59:31,750 --> 00:59:29,599
what are called

1780
00:59:34,309 --> 00:59:31,760
separate body plans where you have

1781
00:59:35,589 --> 00:59:34,319
unique ways of arranging body parts

1782
00:59:38,069 --> 00:59:35,599
tissues organs

1783
00:59:40,470 --> 00:59:38,079
into a particular architecture and those

1784
00:59:42,710 --> 00:59:40,480
unique architectures

1785
00:59:43,750 --> 00:59:42,720
arise in the history of life very

1786
00:59:45,510 --> 00:59:43,760
abruptly

1787
00:59:47,510 --> 00:59:45,520
and so that's that's a case where

1788
00:59:48,390 --> 00:59:47,520
there's a massive amount of new genetic

1789
00:59:49,589 --> 00:59:48,400
information

1790
00:59:52,230 --> 00:59:49,599
something else we haven't really talked

1791
00:59:53,990 --> 00:59:52,240
about but something called uh onto or

1792
00:59:55,109 --> 00:59:54,000
epigenetic information information

1793
00:59:58,230 --> 00:59:55,119
that's stored

1794
00:59:58,549 --> 00:59:58,240
at a higher level than the dna um and so

1795
01:00:07,349 --> 00:59:58,559
i

1796
01:00:10,069 --> 01:00:07,359
just that the the

1797
01:00:10,630 --> 01:00:10,079
the ancestral fossils are missing it's

1798
01:00:16,309 --> 01:00:10,640
that

1799
01:00:17,829 --> 01:00:16,319
body plans and architectures the

1800
01:00:19,829 --> 01:00:17,839
evolutionary process would have to

1801
01:00:21,829 --> 01:00:19,839
generate a vast amount of genetic

1802
01:00:23,270 --> 01:00:21,839
and other higher forms of information to

1803
01:00:26,470 --> 01:00:23,280
build these systems

1804
01:00:29,030 --> 01:00:26,480
and in darwin's doubt i show why uh

1805
01:00:31,270 --> 01:00:29,040
that's implausible from the standpoint

1806
01:00:32,789 --> 01:00:31,280
of really any of the major evolutionary

1807
01:00:34,630 --> 01:00:32,799
models that are currently on offer they

1808
01:00:36,549 --> 01:00:34,640
either presuppose pre-existing

1809
01:00:38,950 --> 01:00:36,559
forms of information or they fail to

1810
01:00:42,630 --> 01:00:38,960
explain the animation required

1811
01:00:45,270 --> 01:00:42,640
but when it comes to evolution generally

1812
01:00:46,950 --> 01:00:45,280
you agree with it you think that it is a

1813
01:00:48,870 --> 01:00:46,960
proper scientific theory and does in

1814
01:00:51,190 --> 01:00:48,880
fact explain a lot of changes that you

1815
01:00:53,589 --> 01:00:51,200
see in species and perhaps

1816
01:00:55,510 --> 01:00:53,599
explains life coming out of the ocean

1817
01:00:58,630 --> 01:00:55,520
and fish crawling out of the ocean and

1818
01:01:02,069 --> 01:00:58,640
turning into reptiles etc well

1819
01:01:04,470 --> 01:01:02,079
i think that evolution is a real pro

1820
01:01:05,349 --> 01:01:04,480
the mutation selection is a real process

1821
01:01:09,510 --> 01:01:05,359
there are

1822
01:01:11,589 --> 01:01:09,520
continuous changes within

1823
01:01:13,109 --> 01:01:11,599
many of the lower taxonomic groups that

1824
01:01:15,030 --> 01:01:13,119
can be mapped so

1825
01:01:17,030 --> 01:01:15,040
uh evolutionary biologists have also

1826
01:01:19,750 --> 01:01:17,040
often made a distinction between

1827
01:01:21,270 --> 01:01:19,760
macro and microevolution uh i'm

1828
01:01:22,789 --> 01:01:21,280
skeptical about

1829
01:01:24,630 --> 01:01:22,799
the sufficiency of mutation and

1830
01:01:26,630 --> 01:01:24,640
selection to to exchange

1831
01:01:28,069 --> 01:01:26,640
to to explain the major innovations in

1832
01:01:28,710 --> 01:01:28,079
the history of life which would be

1833
01:01:30,789 --> 01:01:28,720
sometimes

1834
01:01:32,390 --> 01:01:30,799
equated with macroevolution i'm

1835
01:01:34,230 --> 01:01:32,400
perfectly uh

1836
01:01:35,910 --> 01:01:34,240
in agreement with the reality of

1837
01:01:39,670 --> 01:01:35,920
microevolutionary processes of

1838
01:01:41,990 --> 01:01:39,680
speciation and adaptation and the like

1839
01:01:42,710 --> 01:01:42,000
okay and then so the then i think i'm

1840
01:01:45,430 --> 01:01:42,720
understanding too

1841
01:01:46,870 --> 01:01:45,440
so three is really seeing the third

1842
01:01:50,150 --> 01:01:46,880
discovery

1843
01:01:51,910 --> 01:01:50,160
is seeing intelligent design

1844
01:01:53,430 --> 01:01:51,920
that that you think cannot be explained

1845
01:01:55,910 --> 01:01:53,440
to evolution is that

1846
01:01:56,549 --> 01:01:55,920
is that am i getting number three

1847
01:01:58,309 --> 01:01:56,559
correct

1848
01:01:59,589 --> 01:01:58,319
or is that number two as far as the

1849
01:02:01,270 --> 01:01:59,599
scientific disorder the number two the

1850
01:02:01,589 --> 01:02:01,280
number two is the fine-tuning argument

1851
01:02:06,710 --> 01:02:01,599
yeah

1852
01:02:09,029 --> 01:02:06,720
did just describe number three for me

1853
01:02:10,950 --> 01:02:09,039
again number three is the discovery of

1854
01:02:13,190 --> 01:02:10,960
the informational properties of life

1855
01:02:15,349 --> 01:02:13,200
that are best explained i argue by

1856
01:02:18,150 --> 01:02:15,359
reference to a designing intelligence

1857
01:02:18,630 --> 01:02:18,160
um rather than an undirected unguided

1858
01:02:21,270 --> 01:02:18,640
process

1859
01:02:24,069 --> 01:02:21,280
such as mutation and natural selection

1860
01:02:26,470 --> 01:02:24,079
and the best example of that is

1861
01:02:27,670 --> 01:02:26,480
what the origin of the first life the

1862
01:02:30,230 --> 01:02:27,680
origin of the

1863
01:02:30,710 --> 01:02:30,240
animal that would be the best example

1864
01:02:40,950 --> 01:02:30,720
the

1865
01:02:44,549 --> 01:02:40,960
okay gotcha um

1866
01:02:45,990 --> 01:02:44,559
and uh what what about the idea that

1867
01:02:47,910 --> 01:02:46,000
you know you talk about humans are

1868
01:02:48,950 --> 01:02:47,920
actually creating things that are very

1869
01:02:51,029 --> 01:02:48,960
much

1870
01:02:53,349 --> 01:02:51,039
like the things that we're seeing in dna

1871
01:02:56,710 --> 01:02:53,359
and so on the idea that that

1872
01:02:58,309 --> 01:02:56,720
humans could somehow create themselves

1873
01:02:59,829 --> 01:02:58,319
and create life i mean it reminds me of

1874
01:03:01,430 --> 01:02:59,839
this movie ex machina

1875
01:03:03,670 --> 01:03:01,440
where if you saw that you know

1876
01:03:04,950 --> 01:03:03,680
artificial intelligence and

1877
01:03:08,390 --> 01:03:04,960
next thing you know this thing could

1878
01:03:10,630 --> 01:03:08,400
theoretically procreate and so on i mean

1879
01:03:11,430 --> 01:03:10,640
is this something that you think about

1880
01:03:14,630 --> 01:03:11,440
or

1881
01:03:16,470 --> 01:03:14,640
i mean it really means that

1882
01:03:18,870 --> 01:03:16,480
there's a very good new book out right

1883
01:03:19,750 --> 01:03:18,880
now uh called the myth of artificial

1884
01:03:22,710 --> 01:03:19,760
intelligence

1885
01:03:24,630 --> 01:03:22,720
and uh it's written by the computer

1886
01:03:25,670 --> 01:03:24,640
scientist and philosopher eric larson

1887
01:03:29,109 --> 01:03:25,680
published with the

1888
01:03:31,589 --> 01:03:29,119
harvard university press and part of the

1889
01:03:33,190 --> 01:03:31,599
problem of ai with intelligent systems

1890
01:03:35,029 --> 01:03:33,200
is to get them to

1891
01:03:36,230 --> 01:03:35,039
uh create things that are smarter than

1892
01:03:38,710 --> 01:03:36,240
themselves and one of the

1893
01:03:39,510 --> 01:03:38,720
problems that early ai people realized

1894
01:03:41,670 --> 01:03:39,520
is that

1895
01:03:43,750 --> 01:03:41,680
we had a hard time thinking of how to

1896
01:03:45,990 --> 01:03:43,760
create a system smarter than

1897
01:03:47,270 --> 01:03:46,000
ourselves you know that humans and we

1898
01:03:50,710 --> 01:03:47,280
haven't devised a

1899
01:03:52,549 --> 01:03:50,720
a a smarter version of a human

1900
01:03:53,990 --> 01:03:52,559
so how why do we think that machines are

1901
01:03:54,870 --> 01:03:54,000
going to be able to devise a smarter

1902
01:03:57,910 --> 01:03:54,880
version of

1903
01:03:59,270 --> 01:03:57,920
of themselves where smarter means

1904
01:04:01,910 --> 01:03:59,280
acquiring what's called general

1905
01:04:03,829 --> 01:04:01,920
intelligence rather than task specific

1906
01:04:05,589 --> 01:04:03,839
knowledge about solving a problem like

1907
01:04:08,309 --> 01:04:05,599
playing chess or something so

1908
01:04:09,270 --> 01:04:08,319
um so i'm not sure where you're heading

1909
01:04:12,390 --> 01:04:09,280
with that but uh

1910
01:04:14,309 --> 01:04:12,400
you know this is the the i guess

1911
01:04:15,990 --> 01:04:14,319
yeah i guess you know as we think about

1912
01:04:17,750 --> 01:04:16,000
a creator

1913
01:04:19,750 --> 01:04:17,760
i guess i'm talking about the

1914
01:04:23,349 --> 01:04:19,760
possibility of a terrestrial

1915
01:04:24,710 --> 01:04:23,359
uh creator because

1916
01:04:26,630 --> 01:04:24,720
you know in other words just to throw

1917
01:04:29,430 --> 01:04:26,640
something silly out there that you know

1918
01:04:31,829 --> 01:04:29,440
this was a guy playing around in a lab

1919
01:04:34,870 --> 01:04:31,839
that somehow created the big bang

1920
01:04:35,349 --> 01:04:34,880
type of thing because you know as we see

1921
01:04:39,990 --> 01:04:35,359
now

1922
01:04:43,109 --> 01:04:40,000
able to create and probably

1923
01:04:45,670 --> 01:04:43,119
can create things that themselves will

1924
01:04:46,549 --> 01:04:45,680
procreate or theoretically could create

1925
01:04:49,510 --> 01:04:46,559
that in the future

1926
01:04:50,069 --> 01:04:49,520
well i address this very directly in the

1927
01:04:52,630 --> 01:04:50,079
book because

1928
01:04:53,829 --> 01:04:52,640
there is a hypothesis that advances this

1929
01:04:55,910 --> 01:04:53,839
is called as i mentioned before

1930
01:04:57,670 --> 01:04:55,920
panspermia the idea that life was seeded

1931
01:04:59,990 --> 01:04:57,680
here on earth by some

1932
01:05:02,230 --> 01:05:00,000
intelligent agent on maybe some other

1933
01:05:04,069 --> 01:05:02,240
planet or somewhere within the cosmos

1934
01:05:05,750 --> 01:05:04,079
or even if you want to say there was a

1935
01:05:07,430 --> 01:05:05,760
creator of all of us that was

1936
01:05:09,190 --> 01:05:07,440
pre-existed us on the planet a

1937
01:05:12,069 --> 01:05:09,200
terrestrial intelligence

1938
01:05:13,990 --> 01:05:12,079
either way any any intelligent agent

1939
01:05:15,589 --> 01:05:14,000
within the universe

1940
01:05:17,829 --> 01:05:15,599
cannot account for the origin of the

1941
01:05:19,910 --> 01:05:17,839
universe itself or the fine-tuning

1942
01:05:21,589 --> 01:05:19,920
of the physical parameters the very

1943
01:05:23,990 --> 01:05:21,599
fabric of

1944
01:05:26,390 --> 01:05:24,000
physics and chemistry that make its

1945
01:05:28,710 --> 01:05:26,400
origin and evolution possible so

1946
01:05:30,230 --> 01:05:28,720
um no no being within the cosmos i think

1947
01:05:31,990 --> 01:05:30,240
is going to be an adequate explanation

1948
01:05:33,910 --> 01:05:32,000
for all three of the big

1949
01:05:37,029 --> 01:05:33,920
three facts that i'm looking at the yeah

1950
01:05:39,270 --> 01:05:37,039
it would have to be a

1951
01:05:41,349 --> 01:05:39,280
terrestrial being that created the big

1952
01:05:42,870 --> 01:05:41,359
bang so there would have to be something

1953
01:05:44,710 --> 01:05:42,880
yeah but how does that work extra

1954
01:05:45,750 --> 01:05:44,720
universe there would have been multiple

1955
01:05:47,430 --> 01:05:45,760
universes

1956
01:05:49,109 --> 01:05:47,440
well unpack that i'll come i'd love to

1957
01:05:50,069 --> 01:05:49,119
talk about multiple universes but unpack

1958
01:05:53,029 --> 01:05:50,079
that for me how does

1959
01:05:54,470 --> 01:05:53,039
a a guy sitting in a lab create the big

1960
01:05:57,589 --> 01:05:54,480
bang 13.8 million

1961
01:06:01,029 --> 01:05:57,599
billion years ago um

1962
01:06:02,309 --> 01:06:01,039
when he's sitting on a uh a rocky planet

1963
01:06:04,789 --> 01:06:02,319
in a in a

1964
01:06:06,309 --> 01:06:04,799
in a galaxy in another universe

1965
01:06:08,150 --> 01:06:06,319
basically in another universe so you

1966
01:06:11,750 --> 01:06:08,160
have a guy in another universe okay

1967
01:06:13,190 --> 01:06:11,760
right um so the multiverse hypothesis is

1968
01:06:14,390 --> 01:06:13,200
quite popular now so we should talk

1969
01:06:16,069 --> 01:06:14,400
about that it's been

1970
01:06:17,589 --> 01:06:16,079
it's been proposed for various reasons

1971
01:06:18,150 --> 01:06:17,599
but i think it's popularity as a

1972
01:06:21,029 --> 01:06:18,160
function

1973
01:06:23,270 --> 01:06:21,039
of its use as an explanation for the

1974
01:06:24,950 --> 01:06:23,280
incredible improbability of these

1975
01:06:26,470 --> 01:06:24,960
this ensemble of fine-tuning parameters

1976
01:06:29,190 --> 01:06:26,480
that i was talking about

1977
01:06:30,789 --> 01:06:29,200
and um in other words it's been exp used

1978
01:06:32,549 --> 01:06:30,799
as an alternative to the intelligent

1979
01:06:34,789 --> 01:06:32,559
design explanation for

1980
01:06:36,630 --> 01:06:34,799
the precise fine-tuning that we find in

1981
01:06:39,910 --> 01:06:36,640
the in the physical universe the

1982
01:06:42,470 --> 01:06:39,920
so-called goldilocks universe um

1983
01:06:44,710 --> 01:06:42,480
and the multiverse it's intriguing but

1984
01:06:47,910 --> 01:06:44,720
it has a it has a problem

1985
01:06:49,990 --> 01:06:47,920
um in order for the multiverse

1986
01:06:51,190 --> 01:06:50,000
hypothesis to work as an explanation for

1987
01:06:53,349 --> 01:06:51,200
the fine-tuning

1988
01:06:55,029 --> 01:06:53,359
you can't just have separate universes

1989
01:06:56,870 --> 01:06:55,039
out there if the all the universes are

1990
01:06:57,990 --> 01:06:56,880
causally disconnected from each other

1991
01:06:59,430 --> 01:06:58,000
and from our own

1992
01:07:00,950 --> 01:06:59,440
then nothing that happens in another

1993
01:07:02,630 --> 01:07:00,960
universe even a guy fiddling in a

1994
01:07:05,029 --> 01:07:02,640
laboratory with a computer

1995
01:07:06,230 --> 01:07:05,039
isn't going to affect uh what happens in

1996
01:07:09,670 --> 01:07:06,240
this universe

1997
01:07:11,589 --> 01:07:09,680
um so in order to

1998
01:07:13,750 --> 01:07:11,599
depict our universe as kind of the lucky

1999
01:07:16,870 --> 01:07:13,760
winner of a great cosmic lottery

2000
01:07:18,549 --> 01:07:16,880
all multiverse hypotheses have proposed

2001
01:07:20,390 --> 01:07:18,559
what are called universe generating

2002
01:07:21,670 --> 01:07:20,400
mechanisms some are based on something

2003
01:07:23,190 --> 01:07:21,680
called string theory

2004
01:07:26,230 --> 01:07:23,200
others are based on something called

2005
01:07:29,430 --> 01:07:26,240
inflationary cosmology

2006
01:07:33,349 --> 01:07:29,440
and it but it turns out that these

2007
01:07:36,069 --> 01:07:33,359
um universe generating mechanisms

2008
01:07:37,109 --> 01:07:36,079
even in theory to produce new universes

2009
01:07:38,950 --> 01:07:37,119
themselves

2010
01:07:40,150 --> 01:07:38,960
have to be precisely finely tuned in

2011
01:07:41,109 --> 01:07:40,160
other words the universe generating

2012
01:07:43,349 --> 01:07:41,119
mechanisms

2013
01:07:44,390 --> 01:07:43,359
depend upon prior unexplained fine

2014
01:07:46,470 --> 01:07:44,400
tuning

2015
01:07:48,069 --> 01:07:46,480
so the object initially was to use the

2016
01:07:49,270 --> 01:07:48,079
multiverse to explain the fine-tuning in

2017
01:07:51,430 --> 01:07:49,280
our universe

2018
01:07:53,190 --> 01:07:51,440
but to do so you need universe

2019
01:07:53,990 --> 01:07:53,200
generating mechanisms that themselves

2020
01:07:55,349 --> 01:07:54,000
require prior

2021
01:07:56,789 --> 01:07:55,359
unexplained fine-tuning so you haven't

2022
01:07:57,829 --> 01:07:56,799
really explained the fight the ultimate

2023
01:07:59,750 --> 01:07:57,839
origin the fine-tuning

2024
01:08:01,670 --> 01:07:59,760
you've just pushed it back one one

2025
01:08:03,430 --> 01:08:01,680
generation and that would include

2026
01:08:05,190 --> 01:08:03,440
presumably the fine-tuning necessary to

2027
01:08:06,069 --> 01:08:05,200
produce a little guy on a computer in

2028
01:08:07,510 --> 01:08:06,079
some universe

2029
01:08:09,109 --> 01:08:07,520
trying to spin out other universes i

2030
01:08:09,510 --> 01:08:09,119
mean eventually you've got to explain

2031
01:08:11,589 --> 01:08:09,520
that

2032
01:08:12,549 --> 01:08:11,599
original fine-tuning and fine-tuning is

2033
01:08:15,589 --> 01:08:12,559
again a

2034
01:08:16,470 --> 01:08:15,599
a a type of phenomenon which we know

2035
01:08:18,550 --> 01:08:16,480
from experience

2036
01:08:19,669 --> 01:08:18,560
is always the product of intelligence

2037
01:08:20,550 --> 01:08:19,679
when we say something that's finely

2038
01:08:22,309 --> 01:08:20,560
tuned we mean

2039
01:08:24,709 --> 01:08:22,319
there's an ensemble of improbable

2040
01:08:27,189 --> 01:08:24,719
parameters that jointly function

2041
01:08:29,110 --> 01:08:27,199
to exemplify a set of functional

2042
01:08:30,149 --> 01:08:29,120
requirements or produce a functional

2043
01:08:32,309 --> 01:08:30,159
outcome

2044
01:08:33,990 --> 01:08:32,319
and so we could think of a french recipe

2045
01:08:35,990 --> 01:08:34,000
as a finely tuned system or an internal

2046
01:08:37,669 --> 01:08:36,000
combustion as a finely tuned system or a

2047
01:08:39,110 --> 01:08:37,679
section of digital code or computer

2048
01:08:40,630 --> 01:08:39,120
hardware is finely tuned

2049
01:08:43,030 --> 01:08:40,640
what do all those things have in common

2050
01:08:44,630 --> 01:08:43,040
they have in common a prior intelligent

2051
01:08:45,430 --> 01:08:44,640
agent having played a role in their

2052
01:08:47,590 --> 01:08:45,440
origin

2053
01:08:49,030 --> 01:08:47,600
so if the multiverse doesn't ultimately

2054
01:08:51,430 --> 01:08:49,040
explain fine-tuning

2055
01:08:52,070 --> 01:08:51,440
that leaves only one known cause and

2056
01:08:54,070 --> 01:08:52,080
explanation

2057
01:08:55,990 --> 01:08:54,080
of fine-tuning and that's intelligence

2058
01:08:58,470 --> 01:08:56,000
so i think that even

2059
01:08:59,269 --> 01:08:58,480
even if the multiverse is true you still

2060
01:09:01,910 --> 01:08:59,279
have

2061
01:09:02,789 --> 01:09:01,920
evidence for intelligent design what

2062
01:09:05,590 --> 01:09:02,799
about this one i

2063
01:09:07,669 --> 01:09:05,600
i think it's been semi-disproven it's a

2064
01:09:09,189 --> 01:09:07,679
kind of a simplistic explanation but

2065
01:09:11,349 --> 01:09:09,199
this would be one for that the universe

2066
01:09:13,749 --> 01:09:11,359
has just always been there that

2067
01:09:16,149 --> 01:09:13,759
it's it's uh you know you have the big

2068
01:09:18,789 --> 01:09:16,159
bang big bang which causes this explo

2069
01:09:19,510 --> 01:09:18,799
explosion and everything is moving apart

2070
01:09:21,910 --> 01:09:19,520
from each other

2071
01:09:23,829 --> 01:09:21,920
and growing and growing and growing and

2072
01:09:24,709 --> 01:09:23,839
that eventually the energy from the big

2073
01:09:26,630 --> 01:09:24,719
bang

2074
01:09:28,309 --> 01:09:26,640
recedes to the point where essentially

2075
01:09:29,910 --> 01:09:28,319
gravity right

2076
01:09:31,829 --> 01:09:29,920
and then everything starts coming back

2077
01:09:33,510 --> 01:09:31,839
together again and then

2078
01:09:35,110 --> 01:09:33,520
has another big bang and that the

2079
01:09:37,669 --> 01:09:35,120
universe just it keeps

2080
01:09:39,030 --> 01:09:37,679
going in and out yeah that's fanta i

2081
01:09:41,590 --> 01:09:39,040
mean that's another good question

2082
01:09:42,709 --> 01:09:41,600
um the this is called the oscillating

2083
01:09:44,630 --> 01:09:42,719
universe model

2084
01:09:45,829 --> 01:09:44,640
or sometimes called a cyclical universe

2085
01:09:48,550 --> 01:09:45,839
model um

2086
01:09:50,149 --> 01:09:48,560
these were pretty popular in the 1980s

2087
01:09:51,910 --> 01:09:50,159
in cosmology because it did a nice

2088
01:09:53,829 --> 01:09:51,920
it did a nice job of accounting for the

2089
01:09:55,189 --> 01:09:53,839
observational evidence of an expansion

2090
01:09:56,790 --> 01:09:55,199
because we could say we're in the

2091
01:09:59,350 --> 01:09:56,800
expansion phase right now

2092
01:10:00,870 --> 01:09:59,360
but later we'll recollapse and then

2093
01:10:03,510 --> 01:10:00,880
expand again and recollapse and expand

2094
01:10:06,950 --> 01:10:03,520
and re-collapse

2095
01:10:09,590 --> 01:10:06,960
two problems one emerged one was that

2096
01:10:11,270 --> 01:10:09,600
there doesn't seem to be enough

2097
01:10:12,630 --> 01:10:11,280
gravitational mass in the universe even

2098
01:10:13,830 --> 01:10:12,640
counting dark matter to cause a

2099
01:10:16,390 --> 01:10:13,840
re-collapse

2100
01:10:17,910 --> 01:10:16,400
and with that there's a evidence of the

2101
01:10:19,110 --> 01:10:17,920
universe actually accelerating an

2102
01:10:20,470 --> 01:10:19,120
expansion

2103
01:10:22,390 --> 01:10:20,480
which suggests that it we're not going

2104
01:10:24,630 --> 01:10:22,400
to get the re-collapse but

2105
01:10:27,750 --> 01:10:24,640
secondly maybe more fundamentally it's a

2106
01:10:29,110 --> 01:10:27,760
physicist at mit named alan guth who

2107
01:10:30,870 --> 01:10:29,120
evaluated this from the standpoint of

2108
01:10:32,149 --> 01:10:30,880
thermodynamics and he showed that if

2109
01:10:34,950 --> 01:10:32,159
there were these series of

2110
01:10:36,390 --> 01:10:34,960
expansions and collapses you get a

2111
01:10:38,870 --> 01:10:36,400
greater

2112
01:10:39,750 --> 01:10:38,880
dispersion of matter with each cycle

2113
01:10:43,669 --> 01:10:39,760
which means

2114
01:10:43,990 --> 01:10:43,679
there would be less energy available to

2115
01:10:46,070 --> 01:10:44,000
do

2116
01:10:47,350 --> 01:10:46,080
work so each successive expansion would

2117
01:10:50,070 --> 01:10:47,360
be a little bit

2118
01:10:51,669 --> 01:10:50,080
less of an expansion than the one before

2119
01:10:53,270 --> 01:10:51,679
it'd be like dropping a ball

2120
01:10:54,709 --> 01:10:53,280
and initially it bounces pretty high but

2121
01:10:56,470 --> 01:10:54,719
then it damps down and

2122
01:10:58,709 --> 01:10:56,480
eventually bounces less and less and

2123
01:11:01,750 --> 01:10:58,719
less and finally settles to the floor

2124
01:11:04,630 --> 01:11:01,760
so if the universe was infinitely old

2125
01:11:06,149 --> 01:11:04,640
if you you would expect that we would

2126
01:11:07,830 --> 01:11:06,159
have already reached a point

2127
01:11:09,350 --> 01:11:07,840
where the whole damping effect would

2128
01:11:11,350 --> 01:11:09,360
have taken place and we would have

2129
01:11:13,270 --> 01:11:11,360
reached that point of which would have

2130
01:11:13,750 --> 01:11:13,280
been a nullifying equilibrium where we

2131
01:11:16,630 --> 01:11:13,760
would all

2132
01:11:18,070 --> 01:11:16,640
we would be beyond any more bounces uh

2133
01:11:20,470 --> 01:11:18,080
we'd already be experiencing

2134
01:11:21,750 --> 01:11:20,480
uh heat death as the physicists call it

2135
01:11:22,790 --> 01:11:21,760
but since we don't live in such a

2136
01:11:24,550 --> 01:11:22,800
universe

2137
01:11:26,149 --> 01:11:24,560
even if there were an infinite even if

2138
01:11:27,430 --> 01:11:26,159
there were a number of cycles before

2139
01:11:28,470 --> 01:11:27,440
us they wouldn't have gone back

2140
01:11:29,510 --> 01:11:28,480
infinitely there must have been a

2141
01:11:33,270 --> 01:11:29,520
beginning

2142
01:11:36,709 --> 01:11:33,280
um so there's so

2143
01:11:38,630 --> 01:11:36,719
uh yeah even even if there were

2144
01:11:39,750 --> 01:11:38,640
and even if there were previous cycles

2145
01:11:41,430 --> 01:11:39,760
they couldn't have gone on

2146
01:11:43,030 --> 01:11:41,440
infinitely into the past or we would

2147
01:11:43,830 --> 01:11:43,040
have already reached that point of not

2148
01:11:46,550 --> 01:11:43,840
nullifying

2149
01:11:47,189 --> 01:11:46,560
uh thermodynamic equilibrium okay last

2150
01:11:49,990 --> 01:11:47,199
two quick

2151
01:11:50,470 --> 01:11:50,000
questions just to sneak in one is your

2152
01:11:57,030 --> 01:11:50,480
questions

2153
01:11:59,669 --> 01:11:58,390
it's always hard to answer them but yeah

2154
01:12:01,669 --> 01:11:59,679
you know you come prepared with

2155
01:12:02,630 --> 01:12:01,679
multi-verses and oscillating universes

2156
01:12:06,310 --> 01:12:02,640
that's a pretty good interview

2157
01:12:08,709 --> 01:12:06,320
so thank you um so bottom line

2158
01:12:09,430 --> 01:12:08,719
under your theory where would this leave

2159
01:12:11,830 --> 01:12:09,440
us uh

2160
01:12:12,550 --> 01:12:11,840
as far as life on another planet uh

2161
01:12:15,830 --> 01:12:12,560
agnostic

2162
01:12:18,149 --> 01:12:15,840
could be might not be um there's couple

2163
01:12:19,750 --> 01:12:18,159
it it was assumed for a long time that

2164
01:12:20,390 --> 01:12:19,760
life somewhere else in the universe was

2165
01:12:21,990 --> 01:12:20,400
pretty much

2166
01:12:24,070 --> 01:12:22,000
probabilistically inevitable because

2167
01:12:25,270 --> 01:12:24,080
there were so many it was 200 billion

2168
01:12:27,669 --> 01:12:25,280
galaxies right

2169
01:12:29,510 --> 01:12:27,679
which was is a stunning find in just the

2170
01:12:30,229 --> 01:12:29,520
last century i mean in 1920 we didn't

2171
01:12:31,510 --> 01:12:30,239
know that

2172
01:12:33,350 --> 01:12:31,520
they were still debating whether the

2173
01:12:35,270 --> 01:12:33,360
milky way was the only one but we now

2174
01:12:37,510 --> 01:12:35,280
think there is on order of 200 billion

2175
01:12:39,350 --> 01:12:37,520
galaxies maybe more

2176
01:12:41,189 --> 01:12:39,360
so that's a lot of places where life

2177
01:12:43,350 --> 01:12:41,199
could evolve

2178
01:12:44,310 --> 01:12:43,360
but the other problem is that the

2179
01:12:47,110 --> 01:12:44,320
conditions

2180
01:12:47,669 --> 01:12:47,120
under which the evolution of life could

2181
01:12:50,790 --> 01:12:47,679
occur

2182
01:12:52,870 --> 01:12:50,800
are so incredibly improbable that uh

2183
01:12:54,390 --> 01:12:52,880
there's been a new a new strain of

2184
01:12:55,110 --> 01:12:54,400
thinking among astronomers a very

2185
01:12:56,709 --> 01:12:55,120
important book

2186
01:12:58,470 --> 01:12:56,719
uh by two university of washington

2187
01:13:01,910 --> 01:12:58,480
astronomers don brownlee

2188
01:13:03,669 --> 01:13:01,920
and peter ward called rare earth

2189
01:13:05,750 --> 01:13:03,679
and another book called privileged

2190
01:13:06,550 --> 01:13:05,760
planet by astronomer guillermo gonzalez

2191
01:13:09,990 --> 01:13:06,560
and philosopher j

2192
01:13:12,550 --> 01:13:10,000
richards they argue that

2193
01:13:13,590 --> 01:13:12,560
yeah there's a lot of a lot of different

2194
01:13:15,990 --> 01:13:13,600
places

2195
01:13:17,669 --> 01:13:16,000
where life could have arisen that's you

2196
01:13:19,350 --> 01:13:17,679
think of that as the numerator

2197
01:13:21,350 --> 01:13:19,360
but if we think of the denominator of

2198
01:13:22,790 --> 01:13:21,360
all the different conditions that have

2199
01:13:25,430 --> 01:13:22,800
to be met

2200
01:13:25,910 --> 01:13:25,440
that 200 200 billion galaxies may be

2201
01:13:28,709 --> 01:13:25,920
small

2202
01:13:30,390 --> 01:13:28,719
in comparison to the number of things

2203
01:13:32,550 --> 01:13:30,400
that would have to be just right to get

2204
01:13:34,630 --> 01:13:32,560
to get life going so i think it's an

2205
01:13:36,149 --> 01:13:34,640
open open question but

2206
01:13:37,910 --> 01:13:36,159
we have found no evidence of

2207
01:13:40,310 --> 01:13:37,920
extraterrestrial life

2208
01:13:42,229 --> 01:13:40,320
and the even the extrasolar planets that

2209
01:13:42,950 --> 01:13:42,239
we found are not suitable for life they

2210
01:13:45,430 --> 01:13:42,960
have

2211
01:13:46,709 --> 01:13:45,440
highly eccentric orbits or uh where they

2212
01:13:49,110 --> 01:13:46,719
get too hot too cold and

2213
01:13:49,750 --> 01:13:49,120
in their orbit orbital cycle to sustain

2214
01:13:52,709 --> 01:13:49,760
life

2215
01:13:53,910 --> 01:13:52,719
so it's an open question but um i don't

2216
01:13:55,430 --> 01:13:53,920
think we should assume

2217
01:13:57,910 --> 01:13:55,440
that it's inevitable just because

2218
01:13:59,110 --> 01:13:57,920
there's a lot of stuff out there

2219
01:14:00,790 --> 01:13:59,120
but under your theory wouldn't you

2220
01:14:01,750 --> 01:14:00,800
assume that it would require god to

2221
01:14:04,149 --> 01:14:01,760
intercede to

2222
01:14:05,669 --> 01:14:04,159
create that since you're saying that

2223
01:14:07,110 --> 01:14:05,679
really no explanation for the single

2224
01:14:10,149 --> 01:14:07,120
cell appearance

2225
01:14:12,709 --> 01:14:10,159
i i i think it would uh you know i think

2226
01:14:13,990 --> 01:14:12,719
if by life we mean something similar to

2227
01:14:17,270 --> 01:14:14,000
what we have on planet earth where

2228
01:14:19,110 --> 01:14:17,280
we have a membrane that separates the

2229
01:14:21,110 --> 01:14:19,120
living system from its environment if we

2230
01:14:23,669 --> 01:14:21,120
have metabolic processes

2231
01:14:25,510 --> 01:14:23,679
held far from thermodynamic equilibrium

2232
01:14:27,910 --> 01:14:25,520
if we have information and information

2233
01:14:29,910 --> 01:14:27,920
processing systems

2234
01:14:31,750 --> 01:14:29,920
maintaining that far from equilibrium

2235
01:14:33,990 --> 01:14:31,760
state

2236
01:14:35,910 --> 01:14:34,000
what we know about systems that have

2237
01:14:37,430 --> 01:14:35,920
those type of attributes is they always

2238
01:14:38,470 --> 01:14:37,440
arise from designing intelligence and

2239
01:14:40,070 --> 01:14:38,480
the chemical

2240
01:14:42,070 --> 01:14:40,080
there's nothing about chemistry

2241
01:14:44,229 --> 01:14:42,080
chemistry that suggests

2242
01:14:46,070 --> 01:14:44,239
that chemistry could arrange itself into

2243
01:14:47,510 --> 01:14:46,080
something even resembling

2244
01:14:49,510 --> 01:14:47,520
a living cell like when yeah when you

2245
01:14:51,270 --> 01:14:49,520
talk about the the apart from

2246
01:14:52,550 --> 01:14:51,280
intelligence

2247
01:14:54,470 --> 01:14:52,560
yeah when you talk about everything

2248
01:14:55,590 --> 01:14:54,480
having to be just right what you're

2249
01:14:58,229 --> 01:14:55,600
really talking about

2250
01:14:59,990 --> 01:14:58,239
based on your theory i believe is that

2251
01:15:03,030 --> 01:15:00,000
can sustain life

2252
01:15:04,790 --> 01:15:03,040
but not necessarily create it because

2253
01:15:06,870 --> 01:15:04,800
aren't you arguing that well that it's

2254
01:15:09,030 --> 01:15:06,880
not possible for a single cell to be

2255
01:15:12,070 --> 01:15:09,040
created

2256
01:15:12,790 --> 01:15:12,080
um no i i think single cells can be

2257
01:15:14,870 --> 01:15:12,800
created by

2258
01:15:16,709 --> 01:15:14,880
by designing intelligences but i what i

2259
01:15:17,430 --> 01:15:16,719
am arguing is that the kinds of features

2260
01:15:20,470 --> 01:15:17,440
that we find

2261
01:15:23,590 --> 01:15:20,480
in living organisms uh found

2262
01:15:26,870 --> 01:15:23,600
in any other environment always require

2263
01:15:30,149 --> 01:15:26,880
intelligence to to arise

2264
01:15:32,950 --> 01:15:30,159
so i'm arguing that that we would

2265
01:15:34,229 --> 01:15:32,960
like if if life arises someplace else in

2266
01:15:37,510 --> 01:15:34,239
the cosmos yes it

2267
01:15:37,990 --> 01:15:37,520
likely did so by intelligent design and

2268
01:15:42,229 --> 01:15:38,000
last

2269
01:15:46,550 --> 01:15:42,239
is this god that you are formulating

2270
01:15:48,790 --> 01:15:46,560
um the theist explanation

2271
01:15:50,310 --> 01:15:48,800
how does that jibe with the the

2272
01:15:53,750 --> 01:15:50,320
christian bible

2273
01:15:56,870 --> 01:15:53,760
this

2274
01:15:59,270 --> 01:15:56,880
theory or not yeah it's it it

2275
01:16:00,229 --> 01:15:59,280
confirms key parts of it without telling

2276
01:16:02,950 --> 01:16:00,239
the whole story

2277
01:16:03,590 --> 01:16:02,960
um the first words of the bible are

2278
01:16:06,390 --> 01:16:03,600
after all

2279
01:16:08,310 --> 01:16:06,400
in the beginning and i would say the the

2280
01:16:09,590 --> 01:16:08,320
the hebrew bible as well as the the

2281
01:16:11,430 --> 01:16:09,600
christian new testament the the

2282
01:16:14,709 --> 01:16:11,440
judeo-christian scriptures

2283
01:16:15,830 --> 01:16:14,719
um uh affirm the existence of a

2284
01:16:17,270 --> 01:16:15,840
transcendent

2285
01:16:18,950 --> 01:16:17,280
intelligence who is active in the

2286
01:16:21,189 --> 01:16:18,960
creation i think that's what we see from

2287
01:16:23,030 --> 01:16:21,199
the scientific evidence

2288
01:16:25,270 --> 01:16:23,040
the judeo-christian conception of god

2289
01:16:29,430 --> 01:16:25,280
isn't the only conception of god that

2290
01:16:31,510 --> 01:16:29,440
um the only conception of god that

2291
01:16:32,550 --> 01:16:31,520
confirms or comports with that

2292
01:16:34,709 --> 01:16:32,560
description

2293
01:16:36,950 --> 01:16:34,719
but it uh what we find in nature does

2294
01:16:39,270 --> 01:16:36,960
comport with what the judeo-christian

2295
01:16:41,189 --> 01:16:39,280
conception of god is and the creation

2296
01:16:43,510 --> 01:16:41,199
story that is in the bible

2297
01:16:44,950 --> 01:16:43,520
what would you make of that well i don't

2298
01:16:47,590 --> 01:16:44,960
get into that very deeply

2299
01:16:48,310 --> 01:16:47,600
but the uh the first part of it

2300
01:16:51,750 --> 01:16:48,320
certainly

2301
01:16:53,750 --> 01:16:51,760
is correct uh uh in the beginning is

2302
01:16:55,110 --> 01:16:53,760
what the the cosmologists are now

2303
01:16:56,709 --> 01:16:55,120
talking about as well as the

2304
01:16:59,669 --> 01:16:56,719
the writers of the hebrew bible there's

2305
01:17:01,830 --> 01:16:59,679
a great physicist arno penzias

2306
01:17:03,030 --> 01:17:01,840
uh who discovered the cosmic background

2307
01:17:04,630 --> 01:17:03,040
radiation

2308
01:17:07,110 --> 01:17:04,640
one of the key evidences of the big bang

2309
01:17:08,790 --> 01:17:07,120
he says the uh the the data we have are

2310
01:17:10,550 --> 01:17:08,800
exactly what i would have predicted if i

2311
01:17:12,310 --> 01:17:10,560
had nothing to go on but the first five

2312
01:17:14,790 --> 01:17:12,320
books of moses the psalms and the bible

2313
01:17:15,830 --> 01:17:14,800
as a whole so i think that the testimony

2314
01:17:18,790 --> 01:17:15,840
of nature is

2315
01:17:20,149 --> 01:17:18,800
remarkably uh consistent with the

2316
01:17:22,070 --> 01:17:20,159
overall biblical view

2317
01:17:23,990 --> 01:17:22,080
right but you're you're not out to to

2318
01:17:27,830 --> 01:17:24,000
prove a christian god per se

2319
01:17:30,630 --> 01:17:27,840
as opposed to a god a god who's

2320
01:17:31,350 --> 01:17:30,640
present i i definitely am a christian

2321
01:17:34,149 --> 01:17:31,360
and

2322
01:17:34,790 --> 01:17:34,159
uh i think the evidence supports the

2323
01:17:36,390 --> 01:17:34,800
theistic

2324
01:17:38,310 --> 01:17:36,400
concept of god that christians

2325
01:17:40,950 --> 01:17:38,320
presuppose but other

2326
01:17:42,550 --> 01:17:40,960
other monotheistic faiths would also

2327
01:17:45,189 --> 01:17:42,560
appreciate the

2328
01:17:46,149 --> 01:17:45,199
uh the arguments that i'm making i think

2329
01:17:47,910 --> 01:17:46,159
thank you again

2330
01:17:49,590 --> 01:17:47,920
to stephen meyer you can check out his

2331
01:17:50,470 --> 01:17:49,600
new book the return of the god

2332
01:17:53,270 --> 01:17:50,480
hypothesis

2333
01:17:54,630 --> 01:17:53,280
it's available on amazon thank you to

2334
01:17:55,990 --> 01:17:54,640
our producer michael parker thank you

2335
01:17:57,350 --> 01:17:56,000
all for listening we'll be back soon

2336
01:18:00,790 --> 01:17:57,360
with another episode of the

2337
01:18:03,430 --> 01:18:00,800
true show thank you for listening to the

2338
01:18:06,390 --> 01:18:03,440
truth show with jim breslow you can find

2339
01:18:08,630 --> 01:18:06,400
us at hiddentruthshow.com

2340
01:18:09,430 --> 01:18:08,640
follow us on facebook twitter and

2341
01:18:12,310 --> 01:18:09,440
instagram

2342
01:18:14,709 --> 01:18:12,320
at hidden truth show join us again next

2343
01:18:15,350 --> 01:18:14,719
week for another episode of hidden truth